Senator Bernadi pushes for a burqa ban in Australia
Yesterday morning in Miranda, Sydney, a man or woman dressed in a burqa robbed a man at gunpoint.
Then, less then 24 hours later over in the UK
a cross-dressing robber wearing a burqa and hijab tricked jewelers into opening their door, only for an armed gang to raid the store.
The man, dressed in traditional Islamic women’s clothes, rang the doorbell at the Capri Jewellers in Bury, in the northern English county of Lancashire on Wednesday afternoon.
But as soon as he was buzzed in, a further three men – including one with a shotgun – stormed the store.
The group stole a large amount of jewelry, including bangles, rings and lockets, before escaping in a waiting car.
I for one wholeheartedly agree with him.
On the entry ‘Ban the Burqa’ Senator Bernadi wrote yesterday on his personal blog;
In my mind, the burqa has no place in Australian society. I would go as far as to say it is un-Australian.
To me, the burqa represents the repressive domination of men over women which has no place in our society and compromises some of the most important aspects of human communication.
Religion is left at the door and Bernadi seems to share similar views as I do on non-religious reasons the burqa should be banned.
Put simply, the burqa separates and distances the wearer from the normal interactions with broader society.
Equality of women is one of the key values in our secular society and any culture that believes only women should be covered in such a repressive manner is not consistent with the Australian culture and values.
Take for example ‘Assisting Shift in Multicultural Australia’ director Janine Evans’ retort to Senator Bernadi’s comments;
To say it doesn’t fit with our way of life and culture shuts the door to (Muslim) women becoming active members of society.
Sorry but the only thing shutting the door on muslim women becoming active members of Australian society are the burqas they are wearing themselves. If what you wear stops me from communicating properly with you then I have no time for you.
By completely veiling yourself you’re also sending out a strong cultural message that you are clearly not interested in being a integrated part of Australian society.
Keysar Trad from the Islamic Friendship Association puts up an equally flimsy argument;
Wearing the burqa actually encouraged women to integrate into Australian society, whereas a ban would only force them indoors where they’d “miss out on the vitamin D”.
It’s tantamount to denying them the right to drive, the right to enjoy all the services of society as well as equal opportunity
As for equal opportunity, one only needs to look at the recent case in Italy where Amel Marmouri was fined for wearing a burqa in public.
In response to the fine Marmouri’s husband Ben Salah Braim stated
We knew about the law and I know that (the law) is not against my religion but now Amel will have to stay indoors. I can’t have other men looking at her.If the law says she can’t wear one then she will have to stay inside night and day. There is nothing I can do.
It’s no secret that the burqa is widely seen as a tool of female oppression, given that it’s religious requirement is not mentioned anywhere explicitly in the Quran. Salah Braim’s comments above clearly shatter the illusion that these women have any choice in the matter.
Every time I see a woman in a burqa I know that she’s in it because her husband believes as a male I’m unable to control any urges and at the very sight of her unclothed flesh of course want nothing else then to rape his wife.
How utterly insulting.
For me face to face interaction is a pretty important part of day to day communication. Whether I’m living in Australia, Taiwan or anywhere else in the world it doesn’t matter. Facial expression is a core component of subconscious communication and if I can avoid it, I’d rather not engage in people so self righteous they choose to exclude themselves from this cultural practice.
It’s on these grounds I’d love to see the burqa banned. Sadly I fear that if there’s a continued rise in burqa crime however, that these valid communication and cultural concerns will take a back seat to fear mongering and bigotry as primary reasons to ban the burqa.
Some might argue that it’s already too late.
May 7th, 2010 at 9:44 am cbp(Quote)
As always we see the hypocritical Liberal right eager to curtail personal freedom and impose bigger government.
Whilst I somewhat sympathise with your arguments I couldn’t imagine the type of totalitarian society it entails to fine people simply for what they choose to wear on their head.
I like living in a country where I have the freedom to go outside wearing I please (well OK not quite…)
Would the ban extend to anything that covers the face? No more koala suits? No more santa clause beards? No zombie march? By your logic it would have to, and I wouldn’t want to live in a society that lacked santa clause beards and zombie marches.
Other people have argued that motorcycle helmets are banned in banks etc., creating a double standard. I find this argument to be extremely flimsy. Firstly, banks are private companies and can make whatever rules they want on their property. Secondly the extent to which it is enforced makes it a fairly practical law, as removing a motorcycle helmet is straightforward and we are only talking about a small piece of indoor land, not the vast expanses of the outdoors. Thirdly, there is no ancient culture that incorporates the wearing of motorcycle helmets.
I would posit that neither you nor I know very much about Muslim culture, despite what we may pretend. I think it is hugely presumptuous to think that we can tell people what to do when we have never even lived in a Muslim country before, let alone understood the nuances of their ancient heritage.
Sometimes we have to just toughen up a bit.
Burqas don’t rob banks – people do.
May 7th, 2010 at 10:59 am Elbowgrease(Quote)
Bernadi is an arsehole.
May 7th, 2010 at 11:09 am lemmiwinks(Quote)
This post nails it for me. Senator Bernadi was able to articulate what I was not.
As for Ben Salah Braim, if he thinks that other (presumably Muslim, since non Muslim men have been looking at women’s faces for millennia, largely without incident) men will be unable to keep their dicks in their pants at the mere sight of his wife’s uncovered head and face then what does that say about them?
May 7th, 2010 at 12:29 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@cbp
Try walk into a bank with your face obscured. I’m pretty sure after the cops are called you’ll walk away with more then just a fine.
I’d be more then a little bit concerned if someone was going about their daily business all year round dressed in a koala/santa suit, or as a zombie.
Go put on a santa/koala suit and hang around a primary school for a week. Let us know how that works out for you.
Ah and here’s the real double standard.
What about Australian heritage and culture? And I’m definitely not talking about any white supremist federation ‘we’re full’ crap either.
I was brought up here and have an inherent suspicion of anyone who’s hiding their face. This extends to someone walking around with a helmet or balaclava on during the day. There’s a reason that, although they might be climatically practical balaclavas really aren’t that prevailent in Australia.
As a society we rely on facial interaction on a day to day basis. It’s part of the way we communicate with eachother.
To put it into context imagine watching a television show where all the actors wore motorcycle helmets, balaclavas or burqas. No matter the genre it would be hard to maintain an interest. Key components of communication would be missing.
Respecting Ancient cultures and nuances should not be at the cost of my own culture and heritage. And for anyone who tries to crap on about their not being any Australian culture or heritage sorry but myself and any other Australian is living proof there is.
@elbowgrease
Care to elaborate? I admittedly had never heard of the guy prior to the burqa comments so I don’t know his political history.
I just agree with him on this one point.
@lemmiwinks
Exactly. As a male I find it massively offensive that burqas are used because husbands think the every other male on the planet lacks self control and restraint.
Ironically paranoid suspicion is one of the arguments used against the banning of the burqa. If you think the rest of the world is out to rape your wife/daughter at any given chance, well who’s being suspiciously paranoid now?
May 7th, 2010 at 4:26 pm Notozsoapbox(Quote)
@ozsoapbox
>> “Try walk into a bank with your face obscured. I’m pretty sure after the cops are called you’ll walk away with more then just a fine.”
Yes, but you’ve missed the point. If the banks were concerned about burqas then they should be allowed to go ahead and ban burqas in the bank. It is up to the bank to decide who they allow on their premise and it is up to the bank to ensure their premise is secure.
It is entirely unreasonable for an outright ban to be placed on burqas in all outdoor areas. Outdoor areas are public space and we should be allowed to act as we please as long as we are not inconveniencing or disrupting other people. A burqa is of no consequence to you and is of no threat to you.
As I said, if this was simply about the face being obscured, then the ban would need to be extended to koala suits, santa clause beards, surgical face masks (prevelant in Taiwan I know) etc. which would be ridiculous. What a crap society we would be living in.
@ozsoapbox
>> “Ah and here’s the real double standard. What about Australian heritage and culture? And I’m definitely not talking about any white supremist federation ‘we’re full’ crap either. I was brought up here and have an inherent suspicion of anyone who’s hiding their face. ”
No one is trying to deny you any part of your Australian heritage and culture, unless that culture involves ‘not having to look at people wearing things I wouldn’t wear myself’, which last time I checked it doesn’t.
Can I suggest you grow some balls and get over it.
I was brought up in South Africa and taught an inherent suspicion of black people. I got over it. You can get over burqas.
Furthermore, you try to play the woman’s right’s card, yet your solution involves enforcing your own intolerance. Talk about hypocrisy.
May 7th, 2010 at 4:38 pm mdil4396(Quote)
Bernadi is just trying to raise his public profile through this ridiculous scare mongering campaign. Burqa now, what will be next? Perhaps next will be something equally silly such a call to Anglicise all Italian surnames?
May 7th, 2010 at 10:43 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@nooOzsoapbox
What and have to spend millions on extra security to counter all the bomb and death threats the bank will receive? Then there’s the PR campaign that will be needed to counter all the ‘waah religious vilification’ bleeding hearts, despite the burqa having no direct religious significance.
The banks themselves won’t do it unless it’s government sanctioned.
The act of shielding yourself is tantamount to walking around screaming ‘FUCK OFF’ at the top of your lungs or giving everybody on the street the finger.
It’s isolationist and should not be encouraged. I don’t want to share a country with people who think every male living in the community is out to rape them.
Who wears a Santa or koala suit 365 days a year whilst going about their daily life? These two items are usually job related and if police do need to identify you, I don’t see someone in a santa or koala suit not complying because their husband thinks every male in Australia is out to rape them.
As for masks, when swine flu hit how many Australians put them on? Covering your face and obscuring the lines of subconcious communication is not culturally acceptable here.
The few that did don masks in Australia were mostly Asians from memory and this in itself is probably a cultural thing. I’m glad you bought up Taiwan and masks too. A lot of people here wear masks when riding scooters and what not and when they are sick or on public transport (population concentration is much higher here). Nobody wears them just walking down the street and if they stop to talk to you they always take off their masks.
In the classroom sometimes a student will have one on because they are a little sick and the parent worries about the other students. I’ll usually get them to remove the mask (99% of the time it’s nothing serious) as I need to be able to communicate properly with the students. I need to be able to see they’ve understood and aren’t having problems with what’s being taught. The weaker ones especially will often nod and say yes if they don’t get something, I need to be able to see it in their face whether they’ve got it or not.
Teaching kids with masks on is beyond irritating otherwise (shy kids go from barely audible to inaudible too).
I doubt it’d happen in Taiwan but I’d flat out refuse to teach a kid in a burqa (from memory they don’t wear them till puberty or something but I teach some adults too). It’d just be too annoying and a waste of time. Nothing to do with relgiion or personal prejudice, just that I see the burqa as a major hurdle in communication and teaching is all about communication.
It’s got nothing to do with what I wouldn’t wear myself. I wouldn’t wear dresses and I have no problem with them. It’s about being able to communicate properly with people who live in my country. If you don’t want to be part of Australian culture and society and choose to lock yourself up in your clothes then I have no time for you.
Or alternatively certain husbands could get over the fact that it’s not in Australian culture that every male is out to rape their daughters or sisters if they see them unmasked.
I brought up womens rights because it was used as a retort against Bernadi’s comments and I found the husband’s comments in the Italian fine case showcasing the mental attitude behind the burqa. I struggle with the women’s right point as I agree it is hypocritcal. That’s why it’s not my primary reason for getting rid of the burqa, communication is.
May 7th, 2010 at 11:02 pm Steve(Quote)
I’m rather torn on this issue. I loathe the burqa, but have rather mixed feelings about it being banned. My primary objection to it being banned is that instead of giving muslim women more freedom, it’ll likely force a lot of them to not leave their homes, and that’s uncool.
Reading cbp’s comment, I don’t think it’s all that important for us to know anything about muslim culture, or any other culture for that matter. We should condemn behaviour and practices that are harmful, oppressive and discriminatory independent of the culture they’re a part of.
You also used the word “ancient”. Ancient cultures and religions should be ridiculed and critiqued as a matter of course. Sticking with traditions because “that’s how it’s always been done” is more than a little half-arsed.
It’s definitely true that religion attracts unconditional respect simply because it’s religion, and the same can probably be said for culture, but it shouldn’t be like this. If your religion is fucked, or your culture is fucked, then you’re fucked, and I’m not going to respect your fuckedness because it’s religious/cultural.
May 8th, 2010 at 1:37 am cbp(Quote)
@ozsoapbox
“I don’t want to share a country with people who think every male living in the community is out to rape them.”
You can’t possibly say that can you? I think this kind of exaggeration just goes to show your very immature understanding of the Muslim culture.
@steve
“You also used the word “ancient”. Ancient cultures and religions should be ridiculed and critiqued as a matter of course.”
Ridicule and critique all you like – I’ll be right there with you. Impose a ban? Some sort of fine, just because someone does something that you think is weird? No way – that’s not the country I want to live in.
Personally I think Liberal voters should be ridiculed and critiqued even more vehemently – they are a danger to society, to my way of life and all those that I associate with. How about a compromise – you get to ban the burqa, i get to fine anyone who votes Liberal at the next election. Sound fair?
May 8th, 2010 at 4:24 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@cbp
I take it you missed or choosed to gloss over Ben Salah Braim’s comments after his wife Amel was fined in Italy for wearing a burqa;
Sure sounds to me like someone’s got a case of ‘everyone wants to rape my wife!’ syndrome. As far as I know nowhere in the Quran does it mention men aren’t permitted to look at women, just that they dress modestly.
I’m happy to be corrected on this though if I’m wrong.
Why the assumption that anyone in favour of a burqa ban votes Liberal?
Is wanting to communicate properly with other people living in Australia a unique trait amongst liberal voters or something?
May 8th, 2010 at 12:44 pm Elbowgrease(Quote)
I’m with you CPB.
@Oz Bernadi has a history of outlandish religion based tosh spilling from his orifice.
May 9th, 2010 at 6:36 pm cbp(Quote)
@ozsoapbox
>> “I take it you missed or choosed to gloss over Ben Salah Braim’s comments after his wife Amel was fined in Italy for wearing a burqa”
Cherry-picking. Ben does not represent all Islamic culture, nor even some brain-dead generalisation of Islamic culture…
Besides, the issue is not the state of Islamic culture. That is utterly irrelevant. This is about how we treat people in Australia – here we don’t do oppression. We lead by example. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Besides, as you correctly point out, is banning the burqa going to change the way Ben thinks or acts? No of course not – in fact it will just entrench his views that it is Western culture that is the oppressive culture and that he is in the right.
The only argument of any substance that you have posited is that the burqa diminishes your ability to talk to the wearer. From your comments I doubt you’ve ever talked to anyone wearing a burqa before, beyond the completely mundane, so I really don’t know what you’re complaining about… If you could perhaps prove me wrong by detailing how you are constantly forced to talk to burqa-clad women on the streets of Melbourne; and how their mouths fill up with the cloth and you can’t understand what they are saying and then terrible, awful things happen… maybe I’ll change my mind.
@ozsoapbox
>> “Why the assumption that anyone in favour of a burqa ban votes Liberal?”
OK so you had your sarcasm metre turned off and you’ve totally missed my point…
Australian culture is one of the world’s greatest precisely because of its tolerance and openness to alternative points of view. Intruding on other people’s lives – people whom we clearly know very little about – telling them what they are allowed to wear on the heads, is uncivilized, oppressive and hypocritical to the extreme.
May 9th, 2010 at 7:53 pm Phil(Quote)
I also have no love for the burqa. Having said that I don’t believe that the “state” (ie any government, not the state govt), should be allowed to dictate to the people what is able or unable to be worn. This is not what Australia is about.
It’s like how the muslims force women to wear the burqa or other garment, but in reverse. I know some are going to argue this point that it’s not forced, it’s a choice. Yes, a choice to satisfy some jealous insecure husband.
Anyway, someone wearing a burqa has no business going to the bank. Sorry. You want to get in, take it off like everyone else.
May 9th, 2010 at 11:56 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@cjp
I’d say his line of thinking represents a pretty vast silent majority. I didn’t hear anyone object to his comments when he publicly made them.
If some guy from a religion I was a part of said he was going to keep his wife under house arrest I’d be getting pretty upset if his actions didn’t so much as raise an eyebrow amongst my fellow followers.
An alternative to a burqa ban I’d support could be some education on the matter or something. I’d love for burqa couples to be made to sit in on some classes that included excercises such as making the husband walk behind the wife. Role reversal for a day (get the husband burqa’d up), having a conversation with the couple and only permitting the wife to speak and at the end of it watching a video presentation on how treating women like rubbish isn’t welcome in Australia.
I’m sure we could make it a lot more uncomfortable then the above suggestions with a bit more thought. This would be great to weed out the mysongist muslims as I don’t see anyone else objecting or disagreeing with the underlying message.
(my ideas aren’t meant to be taken literally but some sort of educational course activities could be built from them).
I regularly dealt with burqa wearing women in a previous job. Most of them cowered in the corner whilst the husband talked to me (about women’s health no less). There was no communication between the husband and wife, despite some of the information required being pretty biologically personal to women.
Half the time I’d just ignore the husband and talk directly to the wife. This would usually irritate the husband to no end and I’d have the problem then of trying to understand a barely audible mouse voice further masked by fabric.
Not speaking much or understanding english is fine, I have no problems with that. Trying to guage whether you’ve understood the important information I’m telling you with no facial indicators at all is just dangerous and immensely frustrating.
I’ve had quite a lot of interaction with burqa women and I always dreaded this interaction extending to areas of my life beyond work. I’d probably just flat out avoid anyone wearing a burqa in a commercial situation due to interacting with them being annoying.
I don’t see any husbands letting their wives off their leashes though so I doubt I’ll be running into burqa women in social situations any time soon.
I agree. That’s why I have a huge problem with women wearing burqas and the underlying tone of ‘my husband makes me wear this’ that goes along with it. I don’t have any better ideas as clearly setting ann example isn’t working.
May 10th, 2010 at 11:08 am Steve(Quote)
@cbp
I think you might’ve missed the first paragraph where I said I was rather torn about a burqa ban. I’ve been thinking about this a bit recently, and I definitely come down on the side of not banning the burqa as I don’t think it’d accomplish the desired outcome. I *do* support the desired outcome, that being to liberate more women from oppressive religious and cultural practices, but I don’t believe this approach will help.
The real solution to this is very long term and it starts with educating women who live in these cultures.
I am also strongly opposed to faith based schools. The only focus of a school should be to educate and spread knowledge of reality and facts. Religious education belongs in religious institutions and the home, or as part of a class on religion that focuses equally on a variety of religions and their histories.
Women wearing burqas is a symptom, not a problem. When these women are getting proper educations and are taken out of a 24/7 environment of religious brainwashing, they’ll start to see how arse-backwards it is and will start to stand up for themselves.
May 10th, 2010 at 12:36 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
…and that’s when their husbands strangle them ‘for being too Australian‘.
(2nd half of the article).
May 10th, 2010 at 9:38 pm John Smith(Quote)
So its OK to hate Liberal voters, but its not OK to hate the burqa?
It seems we all have our intolerances, personally, women wearing bags on their heads in public does seem a trifle strange, but I guess that is the price we pay for having good foreign restaurants in this country.
I imagine in a few generations the burqa will disappear in this country in much the same way that the Greeks, Italians, Indians, Asians of all countries have also by and large intergrated fairly well into out country.
I should add though, that I don’t take off my helmet when I go into service stations to pay and only one attendant has ever said anything to me.
July 5th, 2010 at 6:53 pm danny(Quote)
really how much more crap is being passed into our great south land australia…this countrey was built on a great christian heritage built on hope/love/freedom..one simple commandment written by god,the god of abraham who created this world
-(OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND),,,is that too hard for you-full faced burqa has no place in our society unless your in the desert or in the snow with extreme temperatures then by all means wear your tent.. god created everyone with a beautiful individual face which was meant to be seen in light not hidden in darkness-snap out of it,stop your winging and just do it
August 26th, 2010 at 1:31 pm RA(Quote)
Since 9/11 the cheapest and easiest way to gain quick publicity is to make anti-muslim comments and approaches. That’s what the senator and our knowledgeable blogger ozsoapbox are trying to achieve.
August 26th, 2010 at 2:58 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Mate if I was just after publicity I’d have started a dedicated blog to muslim bashing.
Take my opinions for what they are, opinions. There’s no publicity seeking alternative motives here.
November 19th, 2010 at 8:53 pm et(Quote)
Looks like there is more evidence to ban the burqa now after some above the law woman in a burqa decides to call a policeman a racist for a job he was trying to do.
This is one of many issues muslims will not have the upper hand in. Dont get comfortable guys.
ITs called FREE SPEECH!!!!!!
We are entited in this country to free speech….its called Democracy……MATE
November 20th, 2010 at 4:15 am ausGeoff(Quote)
This article in today’s Herald Sun bought joy to my life…
“A Muslim woman who accused a New South Wales police officer of forcibly removing her face veil has been sentenced to six months jail. Carnita Matthews of Woodbine in Sydney’s south, had in August pleaded not guilty to one charge of knowingly making a false complaint relating to events in June.
But in Campbelltown Local Court today, Magistrate Robert Rabbidge said the “evidence was overwhelming” that Matthews had submitted a false declaration to police.
The court was told that after being issued an infringement notice for not properly displaying her P-plates, the 46-year-old branded the officer “a racist” and claimed he only booked her because of what she was wearing.”
At least we know there’s one magistrate in Australia who calls it as he sees it.
December 31st, 2010 at 5:57 pm NOTozsoapboxiznidiot(Quote)
@notozsoapbox,
how dare you insinuate that since you were brought up in South Africa you have the right to criticise others for their apparent lack of tolerance over a piece of clothing, how dare you. You do not speak for the South African people and have NO RIGHT TO ACT AS IF YOU DO!
That said. Your argument that since you were brought up in South Africa and had to live with black people and that he should get over it is pathetic to say the least.
I think that you should go back to South Africa since you definitely presume to appreciate others that attempt to destroy this culture at the expense of political correctness. I say you are full of crap and don’t deserve to live here in this wonderful country.
I too immigrated here yet I have fully integrated myself into this wonderful free culture, in fact to such a point where I have placed my life on the line during overseas operations for this culture you so disrespect!
You have so much to be thankful for yet you turn around and bite the very hand that feeds you. You Sir are an ingrate and if I met you in the street, I would have no hesitation to… (Breathe 1; 2; 3…)
As for wearing of the niqab or burqua or whatever they choose to call it. This is a free society yes, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY.
This country was founded on WESTERN principles where everyone has the freedom to associate with whomever they please and to dress as they wish. The laws that are made in this country are based upon Judeao Christian values whether you like it or not.
Yes one can wear a bikini into Coles to go shopping in but is that what one should do if one has RESPECT for the dominant culture? No! And neither should a person be allowed to wear a burqua in public since it clearly displays a lack of respect for the dominant culture here in Australia.
Respect is word I believe you are not familiar with and neither is the word thankful, since in your diatribe you display neither of the 2 virtues.
Do not even respond to me since I have lost all respect for you the moment you spoke down from your ebony tower of political correctness to tell a real Australian how they should act or see things. How dare you you f..ing ingrate!
January 1st, 2011 at 11:16 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
I think we (dinkum Aussies) should be encouraging the wearing of burqas and niqabs etc.
As a consequence, we could easily identify the fundamentalist Muslims from their less radical peers. And when the bleeding heart do-gooders finally understand that Islam demands the annihilation of all infidels (non-Muslims) we’ll at least know who to shoot first.