Threatening police with knives is apparently gentle
A few days ago police dropped off mentally ill Elijah Holcombe to a psychiatric hospital. He had been reported missing by his parents and had not taken his medication in two days.
Before he could be assessed properly, Holcombe managed to escape from the hospital and once again was at large. Upon learning of his escape police then tracked Holcombe down and pursued him through a shopping mall.
Allegedly ‘scared’ by police, Holcombe stole a knife from a cafe and then later when the police finally cornered him in an alley, he turned and threatened the police with it.
With the minutes ticking away and Holcombe refusing to drop the weapon and still threatening police officers with it, a difficult decision was made.
A single shot was fired and the body of Elijah Holcombe slumped to the ground. He died at the scene.
Usually this is the part where all the bleeding hearts in unison sing about how the police could have done more or how society was to blame for putting the knife in Holcombe’s hand. It isn’t often that family member’s speak out about such things but in this case Holcombe’s wife (who hides behind the veil of anonymity), lashes out at police and describes Holcombe as the “most gentle human being I have ever known”.
She said police should be “ashamed of themselves” for killing her beloved Elijah Holcombe, gunned down after being cornered in a lane in the northern NSW town of Armidale on Tuesday.
Yes the poor man was gunned down after he was innocently cornered and gently threatened police with a knife.
Mrs. Holcombe’s accusations do raise the rather interesting questions of just what should the police have done in the face of threats from an armed attacker? It is well documented that a threat armed with a knife is often more dangerous then one armed with a gun:
For those people that think guns are more dangerous than knives, think again. More than 60% of all people shot with firearms even multiple times survive the attack. Cutting and stabbing victims don’t do nearly as well.
Bullet wounds self-seal because of the elastic nature of human tissue. Knife cuts lay open and bleed profusely as the veins and arteries are opened wide.
Is it really worth putting officer’s lives at risk so they can get close enough to either use capsicum spray or a taser which once deployed may or may not work leaving the officer wide open for a possibly fatal assault?
They could have talked to him and offered him some coffee but again, who’s going to volunteer to get close enough for this to work? A man with a knife can run awfully fast if he wants to and all it takes is one fatal stab for preventable loss of life to occur.
The FBI has conducted research into this very topic and concluded that even from twenty one feet away a knife threat can still be lethal;
on the perceived advantage of a gun over a knife they relate the research that has taken place at the FTU (Firearms Training Unit) and FBI Headquarters in Quantico, Virginia where within 21 feet a man with a knife is perfectly capable of getting within range of an officer with a handgun and injuring or killing him:
“the harsh reality in such circumstance is that unless the shot happens to hit the attacker in the central nervous system, the attack will succeed… At closer ranges, the attack was successful before the agent could raise his weapon and fire a shot”
Ever heard of someone succesfully deploying capsicum spray or a taser from over twenty one feet away?
Didn’t think so.
On June 02, 2009 one man was taken down and all officers involved were able to return home. This I believe is the best possible outcome as the risk is simply too great in dealing with a mentally unstable knife weilding threat.
Whether you’re looking at the harsh reality of the situation or gazing at what might have been through the rose tinted glasses of a wife, at the end of the day if you’re going to threaten police with a knife, expect to be taken down.
Had police tried to peacefully disarm Holcombe and been fatally injured you can bet your bottom dollar the ‘oh but I had mental illness’ defense would have been dragged out and Holcombe would have been sentenced to thirty minutes community service.
I know which outcome I prefer.
Note: If you wish to comment on this article I do not care if your best friends with the family and think everyone else should be as emotionally affected by this as you might be. If you’re comment is nothing more then ‘ug ug insults ug ug more insults ug ug *chest beating* ug ug’ then don’t bother, your comment will not be approved.
Discussion is encouraged, wasting my time with random insults is not.
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June 5th, 2009 at 1:59 am peter(Quote)
unless police think that there or anyone elses life is in threat they shouldnt se lethal force. i have been through depression and it can make you think very bad things about society . lethal force is never allright unless the officerss felt like they were dead unless they killed this person .
June 5th, 2009 at 2:01 am peter(Quote)
maybe a few knee shots might have been more effective had he tryed attacking police. which he didnt .
he was stationary the entire time of the problem .
June 5th, 2009 at 7:29 am Justine(Quote)
I did not know Elijah, but am friends with a friend of his.. and if he is anything like she is, then he was completely well-natured and incredible. Although you may argue that he had a knife and that he was threatening the police, if you read articles published online, it is written that he had a BUTTER knife, not a steak knife or machete. The damage he could have done, if given the chance, would be minimal with that “weapon.”
Although I do agree that the loss of one man is better than the loss of several, I do not think that there should have been a victim at all in this situation. He will be severely missed by his friends and family.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:47 am Amanda Cole(Quote)
That is the whole point of why the Man was shot because the Police felt that he was a danger to Society I do feel sorry for him & the fact that he had a severe mental illness but I do know the Police give you fair warning to comply peacefully with their requests to “drop your weapon” & the decision to shoot a person is one made in a split second under the extreme duress of “shoot or be shot” whether this applies directly to them or an innocent memeber of society Remember it’s the Police Force’s Job to “Protect & Serve” there are no winners in this story The Victim’s Family have lost a Son & Partner & the Police Officer involved will have to live with fatally wounding another Human Being albeit in the “Line of Duty” Take Care & Peace to all involved
June 5th, 2009 at 12:31 pm MGA(Quote)
ozsoapbox you’re a complete ass. way to have absolutely no compassion towards the mentally ill. why don’t you write about something else. your insentitive, sarcastic, matter of fact writing is the last thing people should be reading about this tragic event. have some respect.
June 5th, 2009 at 12:50 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Peter If someone has mental illness the cops have no idea how they will behave.
Add to that the fact they don’t what medication or recreational drugs the person might be on and it’s kind of a big ask for them to risk personal safety and subdue the threat. Especially since all non-letal options require officers to easily breach the safety distance of a threat armed with a knife.
Shooting kneecaps and all works in the movies but again given the unpredictability of a mentally ill person and/or the effects of drugs he might be on (which again police don’t know) is it worth taking the risk of angering the threat anymore if he’s not incapacitated by the shot?
Also what if they miss?
@Justine I couldn’t find any reference to a butter knife, what articles are you referencing?
Even if it was a butter knife it’s still easy to stab someone with one.
@MGA So what should people be reading about then? All aboard the police-bashing bandwagon.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:38 am Amanda Cole(Quote)
In reply to “MGA” Do you know me? I don’t think so?!!! if you bothered to read my post properly I said that I felt sorry for Mr Holcombe & the fact that he had a Mental Illness WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS that the Police have a very stressful job & a duty of care to protect the Public from harm & that while Mr Holcombe lost his life the Police don’t have time when a person is brandishing a knife to ascertain whether they are Mentally Ill & not actually going to hurt anyone other than themselves or whether they intentions are more sinister I apologise for offending you or anyone else as that was never my intention I was merely expressing my opinion as is my right as an Australian Citizen!!
June 6th, 2009 at 11:04 am Cuteface(Quote)
@MGA-
I know you show a lot of compassion toward mental illness, however, none of us here at this site is in anyway showing disrespect toward anyone suffers / suffered from mental illness.
Since you are very passionate about mental illness, I suggest you to go and do more research and reading on mental illness. As a matter of fact, the more people read and write about it the more it helps the society to understand the disorders…
June 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am Allison(Quote)
I am Elijah Holcombe’s wife, the one you suggest hides behind “the veil anonymity”. At the time I wanted to remain anonymous because I didn’t want the media hounding me like they have been since my identity has been released.
Your article is one of the saddest attempts of journalism I have encountered. Your “references” are completely misleading as they are only sources quoting, quoting sources, and so on. You fail to site even one direct source in your literature. Furthermore one of your “souces” for your pathetic article is a video that has been removed from google video, I hardly think that qualifies as being “well documented”, as you refer to it.
Anyways if you want to read legitimate, thought provoking editorials by a real journalist please visit this site: http://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/inquest-too-late-for-answers/1533986.aspx?storypage=0
June 8th, 2009 at 12:24 pm Cuteface(Quote)
@ Allison -
I am sorry for your loss, truly am. None of us here should judge Elijah because no one would have known him as well as you would have. Although I don’t like people using mental illness as a free card to get out of jail sentences, I do feel for you.
I have to admit that personally, I don’t show as much respect as I used to toward our police officers now. As from my personal experiences, I feel that I am somehow disappointed in some of our officers.
I hope you are coping well and may your beloved husband rest in peace.
June 8th, 2009 at 6:41 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Allison Firstly I’m not a journalist. I don’t have the resources of a newsroom nor do I represent the media.
Now I read the article you linked and from it I decyphered two things.
1. Police took Elijah to mental hospital where he was immediately assesed and deemed a voluntary patient.
So to classify him as voluntary they obviously deemed he wasn’t mentally ill or mentally disordered. Thus he was placed in an insecure room and left the hospital.
2. Police then gave pursuit to a man they had dropped off a mental institution after receiving information from his parents he was mentally ill.
What followed was a showdown between someone the hospital had declared not mentally ill or disordered and the police. For all we know they just might have wanted to question him, obviously they’d be a bit puzzled having just dropped him off earlier that day.
Elijah might have been a teddy bear to you but on that day he was just another random threatening police with a knife. If you need another reference to the 21 feet threat threshold here’s one;
Here’s a book excerpt from the book ‘Tools of Violence‘:
Either Elijah had mental problems, in which case I’d be taking it up with the hospital, or he didn’t, in which case he refused a police directive to disarm and was subsequently shot.
Sorry for your loss but lets not let our emotions cloud the fact that police aren’t out there to risk their lives when presented with armed threats. Even though I disagree with you, I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion.
June 8th, 2009 at 8:12 pm Cuteface(Quote)
@ Oz -
Sorry but I disagree with you that ‘police are out there to risk their lives’… because if they really are out there risking for all us citizens, then they would think twice before pull that trigger… In fact, ANY trigger. They DO NOT want to risk their lives therefor using their power and authority to terminate what they would have considered as a threat…
June 8th, 2009 at 8:21 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
If you read what I said you’d see that I stated it’s not their job to risk their lives when faced with an armed threat.
June 8th, 2009 at 8:28 pm Cuteface(Quote)
Alright fair enough. So they are out there risking us citizens lives instead?! Sorry but I’ve lost my respect toward polices slowly…
June 8th, 2009 at 8:30 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
It’s quite simple, if you threaten police with a knife and then refuse to disarm you go from citizen to armed threat.
I do not expect police to risk their lives negotiating with non-compliant armed threats.
June 8th, 2009 at 8:39 pm Cuteface(Quote)
True. Having said that, all stories are always ‘he said, she said’. You are not at the scene so how can you determine if it’s a threat or self-defence? I am not saying I know the full story, but I certainly do not agree with you 100% sure it’s definately a threat. If the document and source that Alison provided is accurate enough, Elijah suffered from phobia and paranoia with a fear of police, but he had absolutely no criminal history or history of violence, and he was off his medication for two days prior to his death.
Individual who suffers from certain phobia without medication for even one day can have severe hallucination or delusion. When the polices already knew Elijah suffered from such phobia, instead of shotting him lethally I’m sure there are other way around it. But you know what? They chose the easy way out, shot the trouble maker and end of the story!!!
June 8th, 2009 at 10:12 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
The police that wound up following him to an alley most likely weren’t the same that were briefed by his grandparents on his condition.
Don’t forget this all happened in the same day so most likely a report hadn’t been filed yet back at the station. Between him leaving the hospital and being spotted by another officer and then pursued by seperate group (of 3 I think from memory), no additional information other then ‘bring subject in for questioning’ might have been exchanged. Remember last the police knew he was being taken in by the hospital and then they see him walking down the street.
Next thing the pursuing officers know they’ve got a knife pulled on them and then it’s tick tock tick tock.
You are right though I wasn’t there, so just like we don’t know for sure what went and it’s easy to blame the police, likewise we have no idea just how much he might have threatened them prior to being taken down.
June 8th, 2009 at 10:26 pm Cuteface(Quote)
A couple of points to keep in mind-
a). When the polices spot a target or suspect, before they pull the trigger, they should have communicate with other officers via radio. If they do so, the masssage would have come across that Elijah was admitted to ED earlier on etc. If the identity varification wasn’t conducted then they shouldn’t have pull the trigger.
b). A knife is not as dangerous as a gun. I mean, come on, seriously, when you have 2-3 police officers vs one mentally ill man, don’t tell me he is more dangerous. Plus, it’s not really tick tock because you can buy more time with someone who has a knife than a guy.
c). Like I have mentioned before, if the source that Alison provided is accurate enough, this man suffered from phobia. It is ‘normal’ for an individual with phobia to act the way he did (google DSM and look for phobia if you need to).
c). You haven’t answer the self-defence part? What if it was you feeling threatened by polices and was only trying to defence yourself?
d). Im not saying its easier to blame the polices, but there are always two sides of a coin. Like I said, none of us actually know Elijah and none of us were at the scene, so do not put your bet on one side only!
June 8th, 2009 at 10:35 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
a. They most likely weren’t expecting him to run and then pull a knife on them.
b. A knife is as dangerous as a gun at short (<30ft) range. A knife is more capable of producing a kill, does not need to be reloaded, will not jam and is much less likely to miss. You don’t know how much time they had, he could have charged them for all we know.
It’s very easy to assume the poor defenseless mentally ill guy was just sitting there having a cup of tea when the big bad police came alone and fired their bazooka chainguns into him for no reason.
c. It might have been normal for him, that doesn’t mean the risk is any more to an officers life if they are within the 21ft danger range.
d. Like everything I write about I try to read up as much as I can and in this case I’m siding with the police purely on the fact that Elijah was armed, non compliant and most likely within the 21ft striking zone.
June 8th, 2009 at 10:56 pm Cuteface(Quote)
I acknowledge your responses… but… self-defence???
OK so knife is more dangerous than gun within 21ft, but how many officers were dealing with Elijah at the time exactly? Im sure there were more than one…
And yes, for normal people knife can be capable of producing a kill, does not need to be reloaded, will not jam and is much less likely to miss, etc etc etc… BUT don’t forget, they were dealing with a mentally disabled man who was probably only capable to cut the officers palm open.
I must admit that the more sources I read the more I side with the victim of the ignorant officers, purely from my understanding of the medical condition that Elijah suffered from and the police officers I dealt with previously (when I was vulnerable and needed help)…
June 9th, 2009 at 7:02 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Like I said, the officers might not have been aware he was mentally disabled and the hospital had also declared him not mentally ill or disabled by classifying him as a voluntary patient.
Anyone can kill with a knife, the 21ft rule is there because from within that distance a person is quite capapble of running up to the assailant and stabbing at least once. Most people can pull a gun and get one shot off during this time (usually <2 seconds) but if that shot isn’t fatal you’re pretty much dead. That’s from 21ft, who knows how close they were in an alleyway.
It’s just not worth the risk, especially if he’s not listening to disarm requests.
June 9th, 2009 at 10:49 am Cuteface(Quote)
Yes you are right! It’s not worth the risk of THEIR lives but it’s ok with others. Because they are polices who have authority and power and people like me are just small citizens who got nothing to loss.
They can always argue their way out like you did, but at the end of the way, please remember, everyone is someone’s beloved son/daughter, husband/sife, brother/sister. Police officers lives are not the only ones that’s ‘not worth the risk’!!!
June 9th, 2009 at 10:59 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
If you hold up a knife to police and refuse to disarm you are risking your own life, the police cannot be blamed or held accountable for this.
The second you show armed aggression towards the police and refuse to disarm they have the right to take your life. It’s not their job to risk their lives to take down armed threats.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:09 am Cuteface(Quote)
True and I have agreed with you on that previously, but have the polices ever try to stand in other’s shoes to look at the world?
What if the victim was actually feeling threaten by the polices at the time? What if the victim was self-defence? Self-defence is a legal action toward polices or anyone (I’ve checked on this) and for someone who has phobia the subject that they fears of is always a threat!
Once again, this is getting political. As I have mentioned that polices always get their way out of it. If this is about two citizens fighting then whoever shot the other would be considered as a ‘cold-blood killer’ regardless to the motivation of killing.
I’m not arguing for Elijah or anyone here but I don’t like your ’100% police supporter’ attitude because you were not there at the scene. And you do not know what went through Elijah and / or the polices’ mind!
All I’m saying is… keep your option open and be subjective. You can have your own opinion but don’t always try to knock off other people’s opinion.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:19 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
When you hold a knife to police who are in pursuit of you (police do not legally need a reason to question someone) then you are clearly not acting in self defense. You become the agressor.
Some idiot holding weapons up to police seems to happen every few years and the same arguments always come out. Remember that guy with a samurai sword at flinders? Or that guy who held a knife to police in preston who was drugged up on ICE?
They all get taken down and rightfully so.
Police are not citizens when they are on duty and the motivation here is clear: Threat minimisation. The cold-blooded killer comparison is invalid.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:29 am Cuteface(Quote)
That’s the whole point, police do not legally need a reason to question someone, but you can still self-defence toward a police. (check with a legal practitioner if you need to). Unfortunately in Elijah’s case, he couldn’t explain that on the court, because guess what? he’s dead!
And yes! Unfortunately, some ‘idiot’ who suffered from mental illness should be taken into consideration. The polices filed their report back at the station through a eletronic mechine within two hours and before their duty of shooting a subject they should always do backgorund check. Of course then you’d probably argue that there wasn’t enough time etc etc.
And NO I dont recall any guy with samuri sword and held a knife at police in preston. Mind me ask, were they mentally disabled (with sufficient evidence of course)? Perhaps not the second guy cos he’s on ICE. If they were not mentally disabled, and they did not ask the officers to take them to the hospital earlier on the same day, AND they did not suffer from a phobia toward police officers, THEN… sorry, the comparison is invalid!
June 9th, 2009 at 12:22 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Soooo…. if you have a mental illness the correct thing for the police to do after asking you to disarm is to do nothing?
Sorry but pull a knife on police, refuse to disarm = dead. Good riddance and I don’t care if you’re mentally ill or not.
I wouldn’t compromise my health if put in the same position dealing with an non-compliant unstable armed threat and I don’t expect the police to either.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:29 pm Cuteface(Quote)
Not to do nothing but to at least minimise the harm. It’s simply neglecting with that lethal shot.
And there’s your attitude of ‘I don’t care’… when you are in their shoes or one of your family is, then Im sure you’d start to care. (or maybe not I don’t know cos I’m not you.)
No you wouldn’t compromise your health cos you are just another citizen, but polices are trained well enough (hopefully but I begin to doubt it) to try not shot someone to death if possible. Unfortunately, I do expect the polices to care because they are polices. They have the title, so they should do their duty but at the same time be a human being. You are not a police so of course you wouldn’t have that badge and at the same time, you can ‘not care’!
June 9th, 2009 at 12:36 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Police are trained that if they shoot it’s shoot to kill. If you risk trying to just incapacitate a knife there is a high chance they’ll keep up the assault and you’ll get injured. Remember it takes someone <2 seconds to cover 21 feet and that’s not enough time to shoot to incapcitate and then decide it didn’t work and then shoot to kill.
Police do have capsicum spray or tasers to incapacitate (not sure about tasers in NSW haven’t checked) but neither of those are deployed vs. knife threats.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:49 pm Cuteface(Quote)
I don’t think they are trained to shoot to kill ALL THE TIME. So what if they get injured? It’s a better outcome than someone’s death isn’t it?
My point is, it was simply a case of neglecting and the polices took the easy way out (as usual!)
OZ- this is your website so you are going to argue me out, I’m not here to argue with you but to express my view. I don’t need you to nod and fully agree upon me but at least listen to what other people have in mind. I usually agree with you in most cases but not this one, sorry!
And from reading your articles I’m sure you are a cold-blood don’t care type of person, so do not act as if you don’t care for a thing in the world, because if you don’t then you wouldn’t be here writing about things… Do more research on mental illness and perhaps (I can only hope) you understand more about it and won’t show as much stigma toward it. As much as I hate people using mentall illness as an excuse to get out of things, the individuals who actually suffer from it should not be neglected and our society should really look into each individual’s cases and try to understand it more…
June 10th, 2009 at 10:41 am kate(Quote)
I do know elijah i went to school with him for years and as his wife says he was a gentil and beautiful man in all of his years at Narrabri i never even herd of him having a confrontation with any one. the police need to be trained to deal with people with this type of disorder the worst thing they could have done is chace and scare him even more than he was to his family i say this i am so sorry for your loss lets just hope that some good can come of this lets hope that police officers are trained in mental health and lets hope that this dose not happen again
June 10th, 2009 at 4:32 pm Ellen(Quote)
ozsoapbox,
here’s the deal.
For a man suffering from Mental illness, especially Paranoia, being confronted by a OUT OF UNIFORM policeman pointing a gun at you would be TERRIFYING. There is a distinct possibility that Elijah did not realise he was being confronted by a policeman, in which case, his reaction is understandable. I seek not to judge Elijah nor the police, but rather urge you to consider that, without being fully aware of the circumstances, it is no-one’s right to judge anyone.
Secondly, how DARE you make judgements on a grieving family. Asserting that Elijah’s wife is ‘hiding behind the veil of anonymity’ is downright merciless and particularly judgemental given the grief and need for privacy I expect she would be feeling. And don’t call Elijah ‘some idiot’- If he was mentally ill its quite probable that he was normally a gentle and kind person, especially given the details of his family’s statement saying that he had only suffered from paranoia over the past 12 months. Labelling him in such derogatory terms without being aware of his personality yourself is an ignorant assumption to make.
So have your opinions, but at least express them in a sympathetic way. There are more involved than just the immediate victim here.
June 10th, 2009 at 4:40 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
The gun wouldn’t have been pulled till the face off in the alleyway. Police aren’t going to chase some guy with their guns drawn through public places.
As for not knowing they were police, well unless he was didn’t speak english I’m pretty sure this wasn’t an issue. Also note the officer that spotted him was plainclothes, the ones that pursued him were clothed I believe.
As for my opinion, not everyone is going to have sympathy for Elijah – I myself have none. Hell I probably wouldn’t have even written about this if his wife didn’t decide to have a go and start blaming police. That’s what really got my back up as opposed to the actual incident itself.
I’m all for them reviewing their how to deal with mental people policies but to come out all rambo against the police when she wasn’t there from the land of anonymous was a bit rich.
June 10th, 2009 at 4:49 pm Cuteface(Quote)
This argument is heating up and I probably decided to pull out now…
HOWEVER, Oz, I hope you think otherwise if Elijah is your family member…
That’s all from me for this topic.
June 11th, 2009 at 8:42 pm Rose(Quote)
I dare you to stand face to face with his parents and say the crap your saying. Yes there is always two sides of the story, but lets face the harsh reality and that is, the police officers got to go home this day and Elijah didnt. Love you heaps Ej
June 11th, 2009 at 8:48 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Why, what are his parents going to do, pull a knife on me?
You say the fact the officers all went home safely like it’s a bad thing.
Harsh reality: it’s not.
June 12th, 2009 at 7:58 pm Rose(Quote)
If you met his parents then you would know that violence is not what they are about. I am glad the police went home so dont put words in my mouth, what I am saying is that because the media chose to describe Elijah as mentally ill everybody envisages a monster, he was far from that and if you took the time to talk to his family and friends im sure you would realise this yourself. Harsh reality is he could of shot him anywhere other than his chest then they all could of gone home, and dont forget mate there was no reason why the cops should of chased him anyway he wasnt wanted by anyone except his parents.
June 12th, 2009 at 8:15 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
They could have shot him anywhere but the chest, but police are not trained to do this. The gun is the last resort when confronted with an armed threat and it’s shoot to kill.
As I’ve mentioned previously shooting to disable isn’t a guarantee of neutralising the threat. Not to mention unles the police pull some weird Phantom-style weapon disarming shots the threat is still armed, only now he’s bleeding to death.
Paramedics aren’t going to go anywhere near an armed and injured threat.
As for mental illness not defining him, well he’d been off medication for 2 days and it’s most likely he’d still be alive if he’d stuck on it – that’s the reason it was focused on.
June 12th, 2009 at 9:20 pm Rose(Quote)
So your trying to tell me that police only train to shoot to kill? That they dont train them to assess a situation then act accordingly, that the only solution is to kill kill kill? You seem to have done some research in police procedures but not enough on mental illness because if you did then you would know that being off his medication for two days would not turn him into the raging lunatic you are trying to make him out to be. And to say the police could not disarm him is pathetic because Elijah was only a small person (in size) in comparison to most police especially two or one whichever (they cant seem to make their mind up about this). If your going to stand on your soapbox then educate yourself a bit better about the topics your going to discuss and not let it be as one sided as you have done. Everyone has their opinion but there are people who know the facts and in this case you dont.
June 12th, 2009 at 9:29 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
When guns are drawn it’s shoot to kill. None of this hollywood ‘disable the perp’ nonsense, it’s just too risky for officers/paramedics.
As far as acting, I can guarantee you they would have exhausted all other options, not that there’s many when faced with an armed threat within striking distance. It’s pretty much, ‘disarm… disarm please?…pretty please?…*BANGBANG*’
You don’t need to be a hulking giant to land a blow with a knife, that’s the whole reason threats get taken out as the risk to officer health when confronting a non-responsive threat is too great.
I encourage and appreciate debate and feedback on the topics I publish, I might not agree with you but I’m more then happy to listen to what you have to say.
June 12th, 2009 at 10:23 pm Rose(Quote)
I dont want to be rude especially to someone I have never met, this is just a little too close to home for me to be objective, but I will let you know that I do have a healthy respect for police and it does upset me when I hear of police being attacked on duty or off or being killed just for the simple reason that they are a cop. But I want you to do a bit of research of disorders that can turn a lovely person into something else, and I want you to know that Elijah has always been a gentle person all his life and shouldnt be judged by the last ten minutes of his life.
June 12th, 2009 at 10:40 pm Cuteface(Quote)
@ Rose -
I also had a healthy respect toward police and it still does upset me when I hear of police being attacked on duty or off or being killed just for the simple reason that they are cops. In fact, I feel sorry and upset if anyone’s killed, and I am sure you do too. Yes I do admit that I have a slight biased opinion toward polices nowadays, however, it does not in anyway alter my opinion toward this particular incident. My opinions and views were based on my understanding of mental illness at a professional level.
(I know I’ve said no more post from me for this story but I couldn’t resist it… opps…)
June 13th, 2009 at 3:29 am Allison(Quote)
@OZ whatever your name is, so many of your statements are untrue. Please get your facts right before you make claims, I only read your second or third response after mine before I stopped reading, because I saw so many inaccuracies in the one posting, and I am only going to correct you on that one post and not bother with the rest because I don’t have time for this nonsense. First of all you said the police were informed on the same day that Elijah was shot about his condition/him missing. This is not true. They were informed dayS before before the incident happened, so that is just plain wrong. Second his wasn’t his grandparents that informed the police it was his parents. These are such easy facts to verify and it worries me that if you can get such simple things like this mixed up that you are mixing up a lot of your “facts”. Thirdly I want it to be known that I never said Elijah had stopped taking his medication. If you actually READ carefully what has been written, no article says that I said that, most articles quote me saying that to another newspaper but if you look at the actual article they are referring to, the journalist in that article quoutes me on saying something, ends the quote and the sentence and then opens a new sentence and says “He (Elijah) had stopped taking his medication for two days.” They never directly say that I said that because I DIDN’T say that!! All of these news articles are so untrue, it is ridiculous! There is even one circulating out there that says Elijah and I lived in Armidale together (the place he was shot). We lived in Sydney, I’ve never been to Armidale, and had never even heard of the town until this incident happened. This doesn’t matter, but what my point is, if the media are messing up these easily verifiable FACTS, then just think about the details they are messing up about things that are not facts and not easily verifiable….the fact of the matter is that the police fucked up that day, they did something they knew they shouldn’t have, and then they tried to spin the story to cover their asses. Witnesses are now coming forward with statements that completely contradict what the police are saying. Please check out the story below: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25628560-5001021,00.html
June 13th, 2009 at 7:32 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Hey Allison, thanks for posting that article.
If the eye witness accounts are indeed accurate then I hope the police inolved are prosecuted as lying to the public isn’t on. I’ll keep an eye on how this plays out – might even do a follow up if Elijah is cleared.
June 13th, 2009 at 10:27 am Rose(Quote)
See ozsoapbox two sides to every story.
June 14th, 2009 at 9:09 pm Needs(Quote)
Another internet tough guy, everyone is awed at your capability to spit your filth and vouch for being well informed ‘well documented’ while insulting all in sundry with a total lack of compassion. Your such a douche man, you may sit anonymous behind your monitor knowing that your completely immune to any backlash from heartless comments, but at least show some respect and pipe down even if you completely lack dignity, quit your responses. I’m sure that your constant reply’s to your thread come from a deep seeded need to remain at the center of attention even during times of tragedy for others but lay off. Allison doesn’t need any more pain and shouldn’t feel the need to take time to correct numerous errors about the simplest things your lack of thorough research has lent your article and replys. Stop being so sure of yourself and give it a rest.
I say with passion and more than a little contempt, but i know it isn’t below you, Please, for EJ’s friends and family.
June 14th, 2009 at 9:21 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
What Allison does and doesn’t do is beyond my control. If she’s so grief stricken maybe spending time on the internet isn’t the best thing for her to be doing right now.
The original article was written with the best research I could find at the time and hasn’t been edited retrospectively. If you follow the discussion under the article you’d see alleged eyewitnesses have claimed circumstances might have occured differently to what was originally made public.
Once the report is officially filed we’ll have a clearer idea and if he was found to be unarmed and not a threat you can bet I’ll be the first one writing about it.
June 14th, 2009 at 10:44 pm Needs(Quote)
You may note that i said ‘feel the need’, you are contributing to a sense of duty within her to clear her late husbands name, may he rest in peace, by your posting? yeah? I am well aware that her actions are beyond your control, however not influence. I’m not saying that she ‘must’ go online and reply to your thread. Only that by continuous posting in which you have slandered, or falsely advertised Elijah, that you are feeding this sense of duty. Allison will wish to clear his name, as no one close to EJ, would wish for any tarnish to be applied falsely his good name and clean record.. yeah?
Anyway im out, im not going to push this into anything its not, just saying, please don’t grief the family when its unnecessary.. leave well alone and be left alone.
If your close relatives and friends passed away i cannot imagine that you’d be particularly encouraging towards the first would be journalist who wrote a story in a most self righteous manner, using only a completely biased one sided story from a police officer who had every reason to protect his own ass and a few additional ‘facts’ sketchy at best.
I mean man on a personal note, being the first to get the story out isn’t always as important as being the one who gets the correct story out. Being a great journalist, or a well respected online poster, isn’t necessarily a race, ‘you can bet I’ll be the first one writing about it’ competition is nice, but when it comes to something like this, one has to be sensitive, i mean sure if the ape just escaped from the zoo, post away! no body cares about facts, but where heavy emotions lie, walk softly.
June 18th, 2009 at 3:13 pm Vanessa(Quote)
R.I.P My darling ELIJAH..
Not one day has gone pass thaa i haven’t thought bout you.. You left us all so young.. You will be forever missed until we meet again..
Can everyone stop with the crap talk and forget about whats been said and just let ELIJAH rest now.. He would have wanted all this fuss to stop so cut the crap..
R.I.P elijah darling xoxoxoxoxox
June 20th, 2009 at 11:27 pm Toni(Quote)
As a relative of Elijah Holcombe I will offer my support to his wife Allison and all family and friends who remember our beautiful Elijah and smile as we hold him close to our heart. It seems that a blogger has taken a news worthy situation and run with it.
Those of us who know Elijah are understandably hurt by the tone in which this blogger has chosen to write this entry. To comfort the hurt our loss of Elijah has caused us we should remember that Elijah would be surprised and embarrassed by all the attention he is receiving.
Such an accomplished and talented young man, Elijah would never partake in blogging or commenting on somebody’s opinion in a blog. We should all learn from him and wish the blogger the best of luck in making a living out of having an opinion.
Those of us who know Elijah can take comfort in each other and the memories of Elijah. We are blessed to have had him in our lives and no blogger can take that from us.
We love you Elijah
Toni
August 7th, 2009 at 5:32 pm Jordan(Quote)
Ok, here’s the thing.
I’m 16. I’ve known Ej my whole life. In fact, I’m his little sister.
However, I still seem to be more capable of taking a two-sided, sensitive, objective and factual view of these events, than this blogger. I am capable of understanding that news reports and what-not are not ever 100% accurate or reliable sources. I can form an opinion, of course. But I can also make sure what I have formed my opinion on is something solid.
@Oz -You seem to be very gun-ho (pun not intended)and ready to take off, slandering and dis-crediting my brother and even go so far as to question the extent of his wife’s, our darling Allison’s, GRIEF and how she may choose to deal with it;
“If she’s so grief stricken maybe spending time on the internet isn’t the best thing for her to be doing right now.”, simply because she took the time to try and clear Elijah’s name of the ramblings and misfitted statements you handed out without an ounce of evidence or personal knowledge and experience of this individual occasion (being that of the policeman and Elijah in Cinder’s Lane).
I, personally, think someone as committed to publishing blogs about such events as you are, would learn to be objective and factual, if you find yourself unable to present any emotion or sympathy.
Quite simply, this article is stupid.
My brother has been shot, and I have found it quite easy to be understanding and sympathetic of the situation, stress and responsibility of the policeman who shot him.
As available evidence stands, it is not possible for anyone but the police and witnesses to say whether Elijah actually did threaten anyone with a knife as the police are yet to release any information, due to the inquiry taking place on the matter. So I don’t see how you can even pass off describing any part of the things you’ve written about as “well-documented”.
I can appreciate your opinion as it is, though I think, were you to open your eyes and try to accept that there may be more to the story, it may come to be more two-sided, if not completely altered. You have acted rashly and so made public your lack of information. I ask you to, please, be more careful when writing about such sensitive areas and to, perhaps, take into consideration not only what you put into your blogs, but what may come from them as well.
And thanks for being so responsive to the comments left on this blog, and also, thanks to those leaving the comments (especially Toni and Allison). Information is an incredible thing.
I love you, Elijah Jay.
-Jordan
August 7th, 2009 at 8:58 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Hi Jordan, first of all let me just say I’m sorry you went through losing a brother at such a young age. I don’t wish that upon anyone.
I think you seem to misunderstand the point of this blog. OzSoapbox is written by me and I have never claimed to be objective. I, like anyone else have opinions on current events.
Whilst I do try to research what I write about (which often times is impossible beyond various news articles, as you point out the police haven’t released any further information), my opinions on a lot of things are formed on what I read and based on my own beliefs and opinions are quite capable of being one sided.
My comments regarding your mother were out of respect, I did not think it was fair for a clearly grief stricken person to be discussing the event with someone who wasn’t emotionally involved in it. I have nothing personally against Elijah or his family I simply gave my opinion on whether or not the police should be held accountable for their actions.
I appreciate my writing style might not be easy reading for family members close to the incident but as a writer I can’t tailor content to please everyone.
I haven’t prohibited or censored any of the critical posts on this topic as I welcome other people’s opinions on the matter and value their insight. Just as I’m allowed to have my opinions so so are you and I respect that.
Thankyou for taking the time to offer your feedback and best wishes in the future. I hope your family sees happier times ahead.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:49 pm Jordan(Quote)
Hi. Thanks.
When were you talking about my mother? I think you mean Allison, who is my sister in-law (just to clear that up.)
Is it not fair on her part, or yours? I’d say it’s much more in favour of someone who is actually involved with the case to be discussing it.
I’m not trying to say you shouldn’t have an opinion, I’m only hoping to give you more information on which to form it. Sometimes I do like to discuss the matter, to gain perspective and understanding and to deal with it. I hope, only, that you will take into account my knowledge and perspective of the matter, when forming your opinion, as mine is open to any who offer sound arguments.
I’m not certain of much, but I do know Elijah, I know his mannerisms and how he is/was likely to react to things around him, I know his personality and I know what he is/was or isn’t/wasn’t capable of, I understand enough of his illness and it’s effects, and I know of how much of this the police were informed.
Who is to be accountable for the Policeman’s actions, if not himself? Is not every person to be held accountable for their own actions?
Whether they receive reprimand or encouragement for their actions is what is under debate. Either what they did was right, or it wasn’t. And if, for what ever reason, it wasn’t right, then who IS to be reprimanded? Elijah? I’d say he’s already been punished for whatever people seem think he’s done wrong (running away from the policeman who was talking to him?). The Policeman? Directly, sure. But why did he do it? Do we blame the lack of training? Whomever it was to have given the training? Whomever authorised the training course? Do we blame the Government for overseeing such a loop-hole? Do we care who gets the blame or who is held accountable?!
The fact is that Elijah armed himself because he was confused and paranoid and was being pursued by the object of his paranoia. Take a glimpse inside his mind for a moment; If you were scared the police were going to kill you, then a police officer approached you, would you run? I would. And if that policeman chased you, would you try to defend yourself? I would.
My point is, however ironic it may sound, the moment that officer drew his gun he proved Elijah right and so granted reason for Elijah’s actions. And with my KNOWLEDGE that Elijah is/was incapable of hurting anyone but himself, no matter the situation (and I’m afraid your just going to have to trust those of us who did know him personally, on that one), who was it that this paranoia posed a threat to? Nobody but Elijah, it would seem. Elijah had reason to be scared of the police simply because he was scared of the police. Is it punishable by death to be frightened of a police officer? I hope not, or honestly, they may as well shoot me now.
There are three reasons, and three reasons alone, for which I commented at all; One, to let people know that as far as any proven information available shows, Elijah had done nothing wrong, but was needlessly confronted, pursued, frightened and shot. Two, because a police officer was put in this situation, with out proper training to deal with it. And three, to make sure that this never happens to any other innocent souls.
Thanks for hearing me, OzSoapbox.
That’s all from me.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:15 am Jordan(Quote)
sorry, I know I said that’s all, but I meant to put in there that the policeman obviously didn’t know Elijah, and so none of my background knowledge changes how he could have reacted in the situation, you’re right, knives are potentially lethal. I’m just trying to say, before anyone goes jumping around calling my brother a crazed knife wielder, threatening police and what-not, that I know (and anyone who has ever met Elijah knows) that attack was never a real option for him. The policeman didn’t know that. I’m not asking you to become as emotionally involved as me, but just putting out there that Elijah had emotions, and exaggerated guilt was one of them. He’d kill himself before killing anyone else. This is so obvious to anyone that has ever met Elijah, and that is why we’re kicking up a stink when people disregard what they don’t know. And as you may have noticed, it IS Elijah that’s dead, and not the policeman. Though, obviously, I believe that it would clearly be a favourable outcome if both were alive.
-thanks again.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:36 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sorry Jordan I did get mother/sister mixed up there.
Part of the initial animosity on my part was a result of Allison’s comments in the media stating the police should be ashamed of themselves.
As you note the police don’t know the backstory nor have an emotional connection to the the threat. They just see a guy with a knife in a public place refusing to disarm.
(I’m not saying whether he was or wasn’t a threat, but the term ‘armed threat’ is any person with a weapon standing off against police)
Police aren’t left with many options in this situation.
As for accountability I think if the officer is found to have followed police guidelines then they shouldn’t be held personally accountable. With the exception that unless they were off duty.
Nobody should be made to feel ashamed for doing their job, especially the police.
August 13th, 2009 at 2:06 pm from the states(Quote)
I am from the states and heard about what happened to Elijah. I started reading a few articles and Jordan, until your August 11th post I had no idea what to believe. Your facts are solid, but you recognize the other points of view. From reading many articles and these blogs back and fourth two things seem clear to me. First, the media and negative blogs are dragging an innocent man AND his family through the dirt for no right reason. I hope for their sake it will end. Second, with the amount of time it has taken the media to try to tear Elijah’s reputation apart, we could have had a fully trained police force throughout Australia and the states!
September 15th, 2009 at 9:37 pm Allison(Quote)
@ozsoapbox I wasn’t going to say anything more until I read your comment about you having animosity towards me because I said the police should be ashamed of themselves. In all of your “reasoning” you leave out one very important and vital fact which is that EJ was shot by a plain clothes cop. There is not a single witness that heard the cop identify himself as a cop to EJ. In fact, all of the witnesses are quoted saying that they didn’t even know that the cop who shot EJ was a cop until after the whole incident happened and the uniformed police appeared on the scene…everyone needs to ask themselves what they would do if a person in normal street clothes was pointing a gun at them? The FACT that the police officer never identified himself as an officer and then shot EJ (which is why the officer is going to be charged with manslaughter at the very least), and then instead of the police admitting their mistake they proceeded to try to cover up their wrong doings (which seems to be police protocal these days) is why I said the police should be ashamed of themselves, which they should be! So maybe you shouldn’t judge people so quickly next time. Maybe you should wait to find out the facts before you form an opinion and jump to conclusions.
September 15th, 2009 at 11:14 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sorry Allison but the fact is the undercover cops approached Elijah well before the public took any notice. You can’t say it’s unreasonable to suggest they identified themselves before Elijah made a run for it. I mean why would he run if someone in plainclothes who had not identified themselves as police approached him?
As far as I know witnesses only saw the incident at the climax and possibly took notice during the shopping mall chase. At this point I’d hardly expect the undercover police to take a time out and personally make sure they showed their badge to each and every eyewitness present.
I appreciate your efforts to again condemn the police but lets not make stuff up shall we?
September 19th, 2009 at 11:03 am Allison(Quote)
EJ ran from two uniformed police officers into the Cafe and out the back door where he was confronted by the undercover police officer in plain clothes who never identified himself as a police officer and shot EJ. The 2 uniformed police officers whom EJ originally ran from did not catch up with him until after the undercover police officer had already shot him. Those are the FACTS. Why don’t YOU stop making crap up and STOP PRETENDING LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
September 19th, 2009 at 11:50 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sorry were you there Allison?
Why didn’t you mention that you were there earlier?
How does an undercover police officer just appear behind a cafe before two uniformed officers who apparently the only ones chasing him even arrive at the scene? What did he just go wait out the back of any cafe and hope that EJ walked through the back exit?
Sounds made up to me.
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:55 am Jordan(Quote)
You know what, Oz? Actually, Allison is right.
Oddly enough, it is actually more likely that someone has contacted Allison and our family to inform us of the few facts avaliable about the case than to have talked to a blogger such as yourself. Just because you don’t know what happened doesn’t mean that some aren’t even a little more informed than yourself. What Allison has stated is what we have been told has happened. Perhaps you should back down a little and allow others to care about something that you obviously have nothing to do with.
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
So if that’s exactly what happened, why haven’t heads rolled?
Unless what your “someone” told you was the finding of an enquiry, investigation or court case then it’s just an allegation and carries no weight.
“Someone” sounds random, were they directly involved in an investigation or court case or just telling your family what you all desperately want to hear?
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:02 pm anna(Quote)
You, Ozsoapbox, are the most ridiculous, moronic, awful person i think that ANYONE could come across. I have never heard of anyone being so inconsiderate for a heartbroken family. You have clearly lived an extremely sheltered life and i hope i never come across someone like you. How dare you continue to argue about how you ‘feel’ about this incident.
You have a serious issue.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Yeah, how dare I continue to argue about how I feel on my blog.
HOW DARE I!
October 23rd, 2009 at 9:53 pm Allison(Quote)
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2722195.htm
October 27th, 2009 at 2:01 am Lydia(Quote)
Oz,
Perhaps now is the time to bring this hurtful charade to an end. You may not feel you have made your point, or that your opinion has been correctly understood, but I ask you to consider the damage that this continued argument you are conducting is having on a grieving family.
The ability for empathy is one of the qualities that distinguishes us as human, and perhaps it is time for you to reconnect with that aspect of your humanity, and give an unreserved apology to those you have offended.
Although I have never met the Holcombe family, I feel for them, and any other family within the community whose lives have been touched by mental illness or violence, and my heart goes out to them.
Yours should too, and for this reason, you should stop arguing and let people who are qualified investigate this tragedy in a proper, respectful manner.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:49 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
I’ve offered to cover it if and when anything is published that will change my opinion but thus far nothing has come out. My opinions is unchanged based on what is publicly knowledge.
The 4 Corners article linked to above is just an opinion of the events like my own. Elijah’s mother is quoted and well let’s be honest, she’s hardly able to distance herself and have a look at what happened now is she.
Still she’s also entitled to her opinion though and I respect that, hence why I’m more then happy for Allison or anyone else to provide further information as it’s released.
Opinions certainly aren’t set in stone and they can change, until something concrete comes out however I stand by everything I’ve written.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm peter colenso(Quote)
Hi Soapbox
On the news it says the Officer who shot him was pacing with a very unpleasant disposition, it sounds like he may be beside himself. With all the top cops being Free Masons, and the Free Masons being neck deep in the craft, demonic possession can not be ruled out, especially involving a name like Elijah. Elijah is the main prophet, he popped from no where then ridiculed the Jewish elite, then he ascended and sent down hail stones of fire. Elijah also said he would return, and today the good Jews are waiting for him, the return of the Chosen one. He is what the bible is all about.
I hope Elijah’s name did not get him murdered by a Demon.
Pete
November 2nd, 2009 at
[...] not the first time I’ve clashed with family members over my opinions on current events (see Elijah Holcombe) and I’m sure it won’t be the [...]
January 5th, 2010 at 4:34 pm Impartial(Quote)
If the evidence concerning this police shooting that was broadcast by the ABC television channel is correct, and at this point that looks highly likely, then this case will highlight like no other case before in Australia a debate that is probably more important than the actual shooting itself.
What happens after police shootings.
The culture of “Police integrety comes first the truth comes second”. The culture of the police to lie and twist the truth when it appears their officers did not have the right to fire their weapons.
The fact that even when it is obvious that the truth has not been told the police will stick with their original story until the very end no matter how much that in return degrades their integrety instead of protecting it.
If police make a mistake or panic and shoot someone dead that did not really deserve to be shot then that truth should be told and the police, having been forthcomming with that truth, would recieve nothing but consideration and understanding from a fair person like myself.
I can except a mistake, even when the result of that mistake is someone loosing their life, but lies and twists of the truth I can not and in these situations they are not morally exceptable, unlike some other situations in police work where they are.
The “certain” police who stand by this unofficial code of conduct even in situations where it does more harm than good to the image of the police should really change that code because it is now outdated.
March 30th, 2010 at 12:50 pm Completly Agree with Anna(Quote)
This family is mourning… How could you be so heartless.
The police clearly are not trained to deal with the mentally ill and this is a complete tragedy that should never have happened. The police had so many other options open to them… and chose the worst one possible.
Imagine that this was your family or best frind this had happened and how you would feel reading all these horrible lies and accusations. Even though you think you might, you dont know everything.
Allison and any other friend or family member of Elijah, I am so sorry you have had to read this and be put through hell all over again.
March 30th, 2010 at 4:18 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Because I’m not a family member?
It’s not the police’s job to deal with the mentally ill. If someone is that fargone they should be locked up in a crazy house. Again it’s not the police’s responsibility to make sure this happens. If Elijah was that far gone his family should have placed him in suitable care before any of this happened.
It wasn’t the worst option for the police involved, they got to go home that night. Why should they risk their lives on an unpredictable mentally ill person they don’t know the history of?
People are going to have opinions, that doesn’t automatically make them lies and accusations. If you don’t like the idea of people expressing their minds you might want to move to China.
It’s not like anyone held them at knifepoint and told them to read. They’re free to join the discussion just as anyone else is.
May 20th, 2010 at 8:16 pm Sujath(Quote)
ozsoapbox please atleast have little respect to the family alright we don’t care if u have total respect to the police. Elijah had illness and he was scared so he considered the police dangerous so for this reson he had knife pinting at the cops.
If the cops would have just radioed to command maybe ellijah would have lived and i know ur going to argue the cops had less time. And also the cops are trained to deal with this type of situation to counter attack the guy with a knife/gun.
May 22nd, 2010 at 12:39 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Yes they are and that’s the point. How do you think they are trained to deal with people armed with knives/guns?
Hint: Cops aren’t trained to offer them a cup of tea and a chat.
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 am whocares(Quote)
Hasn’t anyone heard of freedom of speech? If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:46 pm sujath(Quote)
tha of course they’re not trained to offer them cup of tea and a chat they are trained for close combat including when dealing with knives.
June 3rd, 2010 at 1:40 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Yeah and fortunately, or unfortunately if you’re on the receiving end, this means ‘bang bang you’re dead’. Knives are too deadly a weapon to stuff around over.
August 2nd, 2010 at 10:51 pm Ben(Quote)
I am Elijah’s cousin and every thing that this person wrote in this article is bullshit. Elijah was probably the most unlikely person to attack another human being.
He did grab the knife but witnesses say that he never threatened anyone with it. the officer who shot him gave in three warnings within seconds of each other and then shot him three times. the reason he grab the knife was because he was paranoid, he believed that the police were out to get him and seeing a cop chasing after you through a shopping center wouldn’t have helped that at all.
Whoever ozsoapbox is, i have known that family my whole life, they are some of the nicest and most caring people i have ever known and to say that the police were right to shoot Elijah is just wrong. let me know what you have to say about this and ill tell you again how wrong you are
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:44 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Unlikely doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. A lot of things are unlikely until they happen and Elijah attacking someone could just have been one of them. I love how people go on about Elijah’s stability of character whilst mentioning he suffered from paranoia in the same sentence.
Well what the bloody hell was he doing with it then? Did he order a steak to go at the same time he picked up the knife?
The very act of picking up a knife when the police are in pursuit of you is an act of agression. What else were the police supposed to think?
They issued warnings and Elijah was holding a weapon. What else was going to happen? Sure the warnings might have only been seconds apart but on the other hand it only takes seconds for an armed person to cover a fair distance and injure someone too.
Well that’s nice, but this article wasn’t about Elijah’s greater family. I’m sure they’re all a bunch of swell chaps but meanwhile Elijah himself clearly had issues.
August 25th, 2010 at 7:09 am Yogo(Quote)
‘If someone is that fargone they should be locked up in a crazy house.’
Dear Soapbox,
The emotive language used in this quote does not help your argument. Perhaps the very useful booklet ‘A way with words’ distributed by Disability Services QLD may guide you with using less discriminatory language.
The link is included here:
http://www.disability.qld.gov.au/community/communication/way-words/
Regards
August 25th, 2010 at 3:49 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sorry Yogo but poltical correctness has no place on this blog.
August 25th, 2010 at 11:24 pm Caffeinated SentryGnome(Quote)
i was gonna make a comment but Oz has already said it.
October 5th, 2010 at 5:18 pm w3b3d1g1(Quote)
what is this…. spin….. possible ex copper spin. 4 people murdered in the last 2 months including an officer of the law. To me it stinks, Detective Cruz was a victim just like Elijah.
The police in this country are not trained well enogh t carry any weapons. They are thugs and corruption is rife.
October 8th, 2010 at 5:14 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
When the police kill someone it’s not neccessary murder.
Of course if you dive headfirst into any police incident that results in a death with this attitude, it’s quite easy to see how you’d be bitter about it.
October 11th, 2010 at 9:12 pm Sujath(Quote)
So it’s alright for a police to kill a person who was crazy and was scared the wit out of his life with cops holding guns threatning him.
Ozsoapbox before u defend the police read this latest article http://www.theage.com.au/national/police-used-taser-13-times-on-unarmed-man-20101004-164ay.html?autostart=1
Then tell me what u think about the police.
October 12th, 2010 at 4:08 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sure is. If they can’t obey basic commands god knows what they’re capable of. If a confrontation arises I’d rather they were taken out then some member of the public.
God forbid said crazy person decided some random was ‘threatening him’.
From the linked article:
The man was Aboriginal so if we have to decide between mental ilness or substance abuse, let’s just be honest and say he was a violent drunk.
I don’t want to have to deal with this trash and neither do I expect police officers to. The man refused a strip search and I don’t blame the officers for just tasering the idiot.
As for the comment ”’nine fit young men” could have restrained the man more appropriately’, well sure they could have but the whole point of a strip search is to eliminate the possibility the guy was armed. Good on the police for not taking any chances if the man refused to comply with a standard request.
I don’t get why people think police officers have nothing better to do then babysit drunk drugged up trash for hours on end till they sober up a bit and become compliant. If the idiot in question is non-compliant I’ve got no problems with police tasering them up a bit to save time.
October 12th, 2010 at 2:19 pm Sujath(Quote)
So ur saying if a police taser an unarmed man just because he refused for a strip search.
Please Ozsoapbox tell me what would you do if that man was your family member or if Elijah Holcombe’s was your dad or brother tell me Ozsoapbox what would u do
October 12th, 2010 at 3:20 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
How do they know he was unarmed? That’s the whole bloody point of a strip search, to establish whether or not he might be armed.
If the man had a good reason, then yes I do have a problem with them tasering him. If he’s stoned/drunk/drugged off his balls then no, I really don’t give a crap what they do to ensure compliance.
Beatsubdue him, capsicum spray him, taser him whatever… he had it coming.I’d have zero sympathy much the same as I have for anyone doing drugs or drinking themselves to the point of warranting police custody. Just because your my family member doesn’t give you a free pass to reject personal responsibility.
As for the Elijah case, if a member of my family was that mentally unsound I’d have them committed with the best care I could afford. I certainly wouldn’t have them roaming the streets if they were a danger to themselves or the general public.
Being a danger to themselves includes refusing to comply with police actions due to paranoid delusions and potentially putting themselves in harms way.
Zero tolerance all the way, the alternative?
Stupid dumbshit stories like this;
Honestly, this one is a no brainer. Jail the idiot teenager for 40+ years (his life is already over), confiscate any other children his parents might have and slap a suspended $100,000 fine against them if they have anymore children.
Oh and shutting down the DHS service that is clearly inadequate at handling cases like this wouldn’t hurt either.
Softly softly does not work and this arseclown is just going to wind up in court over similar charges within a few months again. I for one am sick of paying for this crap.
I can only hope the cops tasered this little shit to buggery whilst arresting him.
October 12th, 2010 at 7:37 pm Sujath(Quote)
If you read the article carefully it would say he’s unarmed and if you read on they also calim the weapon was being used unevenly against Aboriginal people.
As for Elijah you claiming he was put in the best care his family could afford and it was the doctors and the police officers who were in charge of looking after failed to look after him.
As for the case you brought up their that kid deserves to be sent to jail for such maniac crimes but this case has got nothing to do with this
October 13th, 2010 at 5:25 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
This would have been established after he was searched, after being tasered. The whole point of police wanting to search the guy would have been to establish whether or not he was armed, it’s not like conducting a strip search on a smelly drunk old man is any fun.
Aboriginal people are notoriously violent drunks. If they dont’ want to listen to police then taser away fellas (this goes for any drunks, not just Aboriginals).
From what I understand Elijah ‘stole’ a relatives car and went off the radar. He was picked up by police and then escaped a hospital but that doesn’t really count as them being in charge of his welfare.
If he was that much of an unstable threat he should have been committed prior to this incidence occurring. I know it’s not an easy decision to commit a relative but it’s better then them arming themselves against police and winding up dead.
Neither does some drunk Aboriginal man being tasered.
My point in introducing that story was a reflection of what happens when police take the softly softly approach. We wind up with little shits who think they are above the law.
Zero tolerance all the way, whether your a delusional mental case, drunk old man or teenager with a shitty attitude. It’s high time we stopped treating police like society’s punching bags.
October 14th, 2010 at 8:59 pm Sujath(Quote)
Actually Ozsoapbox it does alright i agree he didn’t allow them to strip search but it does not mean they have to taser him 8 to 9 times. I laugh on how you keep supporting the police as if they were something big in this country u call the police and they come 20 min after the incident isn’t it funny.
And now u being racist by saying aboriginals are notoriously violent drunks i mean what the hell is wrong with you not all aboriginal are notoriously drunk. go to this site http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption.html where it shows fewer aboriginals drink alcohol than whites do.
October 15th, 2010 at 4:14 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Why not? How do you know how un-coperative he was being. Maybe the first few didn’t have any effect… and hopefully next time he’ll think twice about acting like an idiot in custody.
No it isn’t funny, and sadly if society continues it’s disrespect towards police things aren’t going to get much better. You can’t have an effective timely police force if society’s attitude towards them is no more then dial-a-punching-bag.
No they aren’t, but a lot are. Ask any Australian what the first three things they think of when you say the word ‘Aboriginal’ to them and I guarantee you ‘alcohol’ is going to be somewhere on that list.
It shows fewer Aboriginal people drink alcohol in the ‘low risk’ category, but have a look at the high risk category – which is what we’re talking about here.
Nobody cares if someone has a glass of wine with their dinner, the real issue are the 24/7 pissheads in the high risk category which, by population representation, is clearly out of control in Aboriginal communities. More than deserving of their notorious drunk reputation.
October 15th, 2010 at 9:22 pm Sujath(Quote)
Acting like an Idiot more like the cops were taking advantage of their power now tell me is it that necessary to use taser can’t they have just used capcicum spray.
What would have happened if they had tassered him more than 12 times and he died wouldn’t you call that unfair?
As for u saying any Aussie would put alcohol on the list representing Aboriginal maybe if the Europeans or as you Aussies call them poms didn’t introduce alcohol to them they wouldn’t be like this.
As for your effective i expect police to be there in 5 to 10 min it doesn’t take longer than that for them to come the only reason they are always late is because they always sit in their car and eat donuts.
October 16th, 2010 at 1:27 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Because capsicum spray doens’t have much of a success rate with drunk and possibly armed individuals. There’s plenty of recorded instances of people continuing to do whatever it was they were doing after being capsicum sprayed.
After being tasered? Not so much. Even if it takes 3-4 (or more) times, at least you know the target is going down.
Definitely. Unfair to the cop who had to go through the experience. If Captain drinksalot didn’t drink himself into a violent stupor none of this would have ever have happened.
Completely irrelevant. History is history and while we can learn from it we certainly can’t change it. Oh and by ‘this‘ I can only assume you are referring to Aboriginals notorious reputation for being drunkards, well done for finally agreeing on that point.
Or maybe they’re tied up trying to convince yet another drunk idiot to come in for a chat and cup of tea. Perhaps if they just tasered every idiot who was wasting their time they could get to the real emergencies faster.
October 16th, 2010 at 6:59 pm Sujath(Quote)
So basically your saying all the cops are always on some drunk idiot well you tell me in one local surburb there would be at least more than 20 to 30 cops and all of them are dealing with some drunk idiot i really laugh at that.
So a taser is the only weapon to get the attention on some drunk idiot i don’t think so. from these report http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/30470.html it shows that tasers dangerous in the hands of cops.
October 19th, 2010 at 11:53 am impartial(Quote)
On the 5th of January this year I wrote a comment concerning the culture of Police to lie and twist the truth in the aftermath of a Police shooting.
I did not see any responce to that from anyone else, maybe because people did not think it was relevant to this case. If you have been following the recently commenced coronial inquest into the shooting you may be reconsidering that idea.
Among other things, a person SHOUTS out twice “shoot me you f…… c…” right before they are shot but none of the witnesseses say they hear that even though they say they hear someone else nearby in the same time frame shout “drop the knife” three times.
They could hear one but not the other apparently.
October 19th, 2010 at 3:14 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I imagine a fair share of them are when we’re talking about the outback.
I know, it’s ridiculous. Hopefully the more accepted taser use is the faster we can see cops not having to waste time with drunks and get on with responding to call outs a lot faster.
No but it’s one of the safest that can be deployed from a distance. Batons and fists need close quarters and a gun can be lethal.
I’m sure you’ll agree talking to drunks is non-productive and just a waste of everyone’s time.
Tasers are dangerous weapons that come with their own risks but just like the guns our police carry, if you don’t put yourself in a situation where their use is warranted then you don’t get tasered.
It’s quite simple really.
October 19th, 2010 at 7:23 pm Sujath(Quote)
Tasers are dangerous weapons and i’m pretty sure there are other non-lethal weapons than a taser.
As for you saying more accepted taser use is in society will not allow tasers to be accepted as a solution to make responding more faster. Tasers will not come at their own risk if it’s used properly but cops just take advantage of it because they know if they kill the person then they won’t face any sanction but they will face criticism by the society that they swore to protect.
October 20th, 2010 at 3:26 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Such as? Tasers are cheap, safely deployed, non-physical and for the most part reliable.
I really don’t think police are using tasers with the intention of killing someone. If it takes 5+ tasers to restrain someone, how many litres of capsicum spray or baton hits would that be?
I’m part of the society the police are sworn to protect and if that means tasering the crap out drunks I’m quite happy living with that.
Don’t get drunk and become an un-cooperative public nuisance and you don’t get tasered. Everybody wins, except the drunk un-coperative public nuisances.
October 20th, 2010 at 7:23 pm Sujath(Quote)
You may be part of the society but one say doesn’t mean it’s not what society wants if you ask any person on the street whether they will accept tasers or not i’m pretty sure 87% will say no they will not accept it.
For example http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/tasering-referred-back-to-dpp-20101011-16fxl.html in this article an aboriginal man was tasered 13 times and he was not drunked either but was unarmed. Tell me is this protecting the society NOOOOOOOOOO!.
And here’s another site in which you should look http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/41876.
October 22nd, 2010 at 2:22 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Sorry what?
I believe your statement is 39.81% incorrect and I say that with 95.76% accuracy. That and I’m currently 67.45% craving a morning coffee but I’m 99.3% feeling to lazy to pop down to the local 7-11.
I agree the taser use does seem excessive in that article. And the prisoner in question wasn’t drunk or armed because he was a current inmate serving time.
If anything however, you’re article proves that if taser abuse occurs there are already systems in place to deal with it effectively. At the time of the incident the guy wanted it handled internally by the police because he didn’t want to jepoardise his chances of parole.
The very fact the victim was given the choice on how to deal with the incident shows the measures in place to deal with taser abuse work.
The article opens with the following statements;
Once again, do stupid things like that and expect to be killed. Either with a gun or a taser does it really matter? If you run at police with a knife I expect them to take you out.
Didn’t bother reading the rest as knowing leftie bleeding hearts they probably suggest the police gave the knife wielding maniac a hug.
Would you hug a mentally unstable knife wielding crazy? Good riddance to bad rubbish he’s dead – no loss there.
October 22nd, 2010 at 9:14 pm Sujath(Quote)
Ozsoapbox why don’t yuo just accept that tasers are not the solution
as for u claiming about the armed man who allegedly had a knife he would have been serving in jail by know if they hadn’t tasered him 28 times i mean an ordinary human can only last 10 to 12 taser shocks and the cops that were confronted could have just taken him down because they trained especially for this moments.
And i’m glad that you finally came to sense with other article but thats not the frist time it happened there have been other incidents and the system that is put in is not affeting much.
And for your first paragraph those statics got nothing to do with this topic.
October 23rd, 2010 at 3:13 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Because of your failure to provide an alternative that doesn’t involve the police physically confronting potentially armed offenders?
Yes and there’s a good chance that if we armed he could have injured someone. Knives are more dangerous then guns at close range and I don’t blame the police for not taking precautions.
If someone is potentially armed taser the buggery out of them… I certainly don’t expect them to put their lives in such avoidable danger.
vs. how many incidents where offenders are taken down safely without incident?
I was pointing out the absurdity of claiming that exactly 87% of Australian society would be against tasers…
October 23rd, 2010 at 6:46 pm Sujath(Quote)
Well i just gave you an article before about a unarmed man being tasered and there are plenty more where that came from look at these articles
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/15/3039150.htm?site=sydney
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/more-will-die-unless-taser-use-restricted-20101008-16c6b.html
Go look at this articles
October 24th, 2010 at 1:04 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
The first article provides a very believable reason that the cameras are being accidentally covered up;
Makes sense to me. WIth a bit of training it’s easily something that can be worked around. Just beacuse the police are holding them like pistols does not infer abuse is occuring.
The second article is an opinion piece by the bleeding heart brigade. Yes, people might die when a taser is deployed but if they weren’t acting like total f’wits or breaking the law to begin with then there’d be no need to deploy them.
A taser isn’t a last resort, a gun is and I know that if by some miracle I was in a standoff against police I’d much rather take my chances with a taser then be shot in the chest.
Which one do you think I’m more likely to recover from?
Stop placing the blame on police and tasers and leave it where it belongs, squarely on the trash of society who get into these situations with police in the first place.
October 24th, 2010 at 1:45 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I received the following via email from ‘impartial’ via email;
…or that in the heat of the moment when dealing with the crazies of society police aren’t worried about whether or not they’re covering the onboard camera or not. More then likely they’re just trying to deploy the taser as quickly as possible.
I do think though that placing a camera on the grip is a bit of a stupid design, hopefully they recitify the problem in later models.
October 29th, 2010 at 2:34 pm impartial(Quote)
For those who have not already heard, possibly because of the strange lack of media coverage on this case, the coroner at the inquest into the shooting of Elijah Holcombe in Armidale, on June 2nd 2009, has suspended the inquest due to overwelming evidence that an “indictable offence has been committed” and forwarded the matter to the Department of Public Prosecutions recommending charges be laid against the Police officer involved.
Let this be a lesson to those of you who wrote comments on this website only one to two days after the shooting condemming Elijah Holcombe and deciding his guilt.
“Those who wait the longest to comment about an event stand the best chance of commenting correctly and with integrety”.
There’s a little proverb to remember. Here’s another one.
“With time comes new information which can make the old obsolite and make the people who commented using the old look very ordinary indeed.”
There was never any chance of there being enough information or evidence, only days after this shooting, for people to jump to conclusions and make comments like he “lunged” or “attacked” a Police officer with a knife.
Anyone would know this who understands the unfortunate world we live in and the way certain people operate in a situation like this.
October 29th, 2010 at 10:09 pm Officer(Quote)
I am a serving member of the NSW Police. However, I am no better informed on the matter than the next person. I am not going to comment on the tragedy because it is currently subject of a coronial and possible criminal investigation and I have complete faith in our judicary.
Seven years ago, I was in a situation where a violent offender pointed a loaded firearm at me and I was in immediate risk of my life. Although I had drawn my firearm, I frooze and could not bring myself to shooting the offender. Fortunately, the situation ended without critical incident.
I mention this because people have unrealalistic attitudes about police being “trigger happy”. From my experience, it is a very hard decision to take someone’s life. I want to reiterate, that I am making no comment about the above mentioned incident.
I hope I have not caused any offence to Elijah Holcombe’s family and I hope they find closure soon
October 30th, 2010 at 9:16 am Ian(Quote)
In regards to the covering of the taser cam, it comes from another uninformed idiot.
Taser, when turned on, starts recording and all taser footage is downloaded. If you cover the camera, during the download it is recognised nad the officer gets a please explain, twice and your not allowed to use it again unilt re-accredited through more training. So it is not done on purpose and to suggest otherwise is a meaningless comment from another person who is quite safe in their little world, made safe by the people that aren’t hiding.
Hindsight is perfect vision, usually attributed to the cowards sitting in their arm chairs! (with their daiquiri!)
October 30th, 2010 at 3:20 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Interesting turn of events but before you all start celebrating over at the Holcombe camp, this is only a reccomendation and does not equate to innocence or the guilt of any party.
What a boring place the world would be if nobody ever commented on anything. If we all sat around waiting a hundred years to form an opinion on anything nothing would ever get done.
As it stands no new information has publicly come to light so my original opinion still stands. Perhaps when the courts decide their done hiding information from the public it’ll change. And if it does, back in June 2009 I wrote;
I think the difference between us is at least I’m willing to accept an alternative in light of new information (which has still yet to be made public).
And let’s not forget the comments that spurned this original article from Holcombe’s wife who attacked the police the day after it happened. She formed her own opinion pretty quick smart and don’t think she’ll be changing it anytime soon either.
Regarding the news coverage I did find one article over at The Daily Telegraph. I’m kinda confused as to who they’re referring to here;
Presumably this known person is the police officer that pulled the trigger?? Why can’t they name him or her?
And if it isn’t one of the officers, then who is it?
November 1st, 2010 at 4:38 pm impartial(Quote)
Legislation prevents the coroner from naming the “known person”, reason given, because a coronial inquest is not a criminal trial but is designed to establish the facts surrounding a persons death.
Your presumption the coroner was refering to the police officer who fired the fatal shot was correct.
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:47 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I guess we’ll have to see what happens from here then. Thanks for the updates.
November 14th, 2010 at 9:50 am Jdef(Quote)
This has to be the most idiotic commentary on an undeniably tragic event.
Ozsoapbox, you are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, to the elementary legal restrictions on the discharge of a firearm. The carrying of what could be construed as a weapon is not justification alone for deadly force being applied. There has to be a credible threat to the lives of the Officers or Civilians.
The determination of whether that threat exists only occurs after much analysis and argument. I could on about the need to listen to witnesses and….but why bother, that obviously is just so much blather to you.
Why worry about such technicalities when you can vomit forth a torrent of uninformed bile and stupidity. Why worry about the discovery of the facts when this is really all about YOU and your witless opinions.
Indeed, what’s amazing to me is that you actually believe you’re supporting the Police with your buffoonish commentary. Let me disabuse you of that notion. Your infantile interpretations of the event and Police procedures are an insult, not just to the family of the deceased, but also to professional Police Officers who believe the taking of life is a last resort.
If one combines your ignorance with the juvenile tough guy posturing on display then my thoughts turn from Elijah’s mental state to yours. I suspect that the reason you are so ignorant about mental illness is that you’re afraid you may recognise the symptoms if you learn more.
But by all means continue with your commentary. I’m sure that all Australia waits breathlessly for the next instalment from a guy whose thoughts derive as much from his bowel movements as they do his head.
November 14th, 2010 at 11:18 pm Taniwha(Quote)
So in the inquest so far we have heard some things from eye witnesses that (gee what a shock) differ from the police version.
Multiple witnesses have said that Elijah was at least 15m away from police when he was shot. That’s 45ft in American and a whole lot further than the 21 foot number that seems to be the magical license to murder people mentioned over and over by Oz on this page.
So, even if the guy was acting in a threatening way and verbally telling police he was going to stab them, he was still too far to be any real threat.
But he wasn’t even doing that. There’s a lot of ‘facts’ mentioned by Oz that are untrue, it’s pretty bizarre.
First, Elijah stole his father’s car but later on *turned himself* in to the cop station. He was never picked up. He suggested they take him to the hospital to see a psychiatrist, completely voluntarily.
Second, he never ‘escaped’ from the hospital. After waiting there for a while he asked a nurse if he was allowed to leave, and she said he was there voluntarily so she couldn’t force him to stay. He left, obviously a bad decision on his part but perhaps his paranoid delusions had returned in full.
So, this is not a fugitive looney who had been held by police but escaped. He was obviously completely peaceful but just confused and nervous.
We can’t imagine, then, what he thought as he was suddenly chased by two plainclothes police who were shouting at him. They may have identified themselves as cops, but remember his paranoia was particularly related to police. I bet he shat his pants and just started to run.
Further, when he ran into the coffee shop, witnesses have now said that the chasing police officer already had his gun drawn and held close to his chest in both hands, pointing up in the classic tv-show cop chase position.
So now he knows these two guys chasing him, in mufti but saying they are cops, have got guns. Great. It’s no wonder that he picked up a bread knife from the cafe he ran through. He was not sane, but he wasn’t threatening anyone prior to this, he was just walking down the street.
So the cops with their guns out chasing an unarmed, non-aggressive person SEE him pick up a bread-knife in a panic, and they chose to pursue him further. They corner him in an alley, and without being in *any* actual danger one of them decides to shoo the guy. It hits his heart and he dies instantly.
The cops here did almost everything they could to make the situation as bad as possible. I do have sympathy with police, I think they do a horrific job and the mental strain of it would probably put me in the mental hospital in a week. But they are trained very specifically in this type of pursuit and what they did was just incompetent and stupid.
They should never have had their guns out when Elijah first started to run. They certainly shouldn’t have shot him when he was cornered. He wasn’t making any threats or slashing at them with the knife. He was too far away to be any real threat with a knife.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the cop pulled the trigger by accident, but the real mistake was having the gun drawn at all during the entire chase. I don’t like to slag the police off but it just sounds like typical testosterone overload that so many cops seem to display when they have a gun and can play tv-cop-show with it.
It certainly sounds at this stage like the cop is going to stand trial. It’s a shame, because ultimately the victim should be in a hospital getting treatment right now, instead of being in the ground rotting.
Anyway, the original post by Oz was typical reactionary dribbling that I would expect to hear from my old man. Not in full possession of the facts, and happy to take the easy answers route. Tasering people can kill them, but it’s much easier to just say ‘taser the bugger’ than actually try and solve problems.
The only time people like Oz wake up to reality is when they get involved in something with the police themselves and get the shit beat out of them at the station for no reason. Then you see what the police and the justice system are really all about.
November 15th, 2010 at 1:48 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Having an irrational fear and drawing a knife on police officers is a credibile threat. What, does an officer or civilian have to die before people will accept that brandishing a knife is threatening?
Well thankyou captain ‘I speak on behalf of the entire police force’.
Way to marginalise any police officers who aren’t willing to take their chances with a knife wielding assailant.
My mental state is fine, I’m perfectly aware that if I pulled out a knife on police there’s a good chance I’d be shot. Meanwhile Elijah is dead.
I know which horse I’d be backing.
November 15th, 2010 at 1:56 pm erica(Quote)
Hi Oz, Im wondering why didn’t you comment on any of the facts Taniwha’s pointed out? e.g., turned himself voluntarily to the hospital, the 15 m (45 ft vs 21 ft) distance, etc.
November 15th, 2010 at 2:27 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Taniwha
If turning yourself into police and asking to be taken to a mental hospital, then leaving because of paranoid delusions isn’t being a looney, then what is?
Sure he might not have been a fugitive but if this was the day to day life of Elijah what the hell was he doing running around on his own?
This is what I believe to be the cornerstone of the problem. Elijah definitely sounds like he shouldn’t have been free to roam around on his own.
The police deal with all sorts of people and taking no chances with mentally unstable people is fair play as far as I’m concerned. In the heat of the moment you have no idea what mental nutjobs are capable of and traversing 15m to attack someone with a knife is childs play.
It’s certainly going to beat out someone trying to pull out a gun and take a shot.
The outcome of the trial will be interesting and whatever the verdict is I’ll respect it. I still reserve the opinion though that there were multiple failures on both sides of this case that contributed to his death. Blaming the police outright is just scapegoating Elijah’s personal problems.
Yes, yes because this goes on all the time doesn’t it.
November 15th, 2010 at 2:36 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Erica
I hadn’t had a chance to respond to a lot of the comments over the weekend. Didn’t see her reply until I got through some other comments.
I try to reply to direct comments as they’re published but occasionally when I miss a few days there’s quite a lot for me to catch up on.
November 15th, 2010 at 2:39 pm erica(Quote)
no worries… I just thuoght you replied to Taniwah’s comments indirectly. My bad.
November 15th, 2010 at 8:23 pm Sujath(Quote)
Ozsoapbox what is wrong with you first u put on the wrong version of the story, next your saying it’s elijah’s fault.
An butter knife is not sharp at all and will not harm anyone, second of all any person with a mental disablity who is being chased by cops will have done the same and last please just delete this forum and talk about something else
November 15th, 2010 at 11:29 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry Sujath, but this forum is run by OzSoapbox, and as such he can say or do whatever he pleases. That’s the prerogative of anybody who takes the considerable time and effort to maintain a blog.
May I suggest that if you find its content and tone so offensive that you cease posting here. After all, nobody’s exactly forcing you to read it!
And as far as your last comment is concerned:
You’re missing a very salient point here. The nature of the knife wasn’t discovered until after Mr Holcombe was shot by police (and he dropped it). Considering that this drama unfolded in a couple of minutes, do you really think that police could be expected to assess the type of knife picked up by Mr Holcombe?
A knife is a knife, and if you truly believe that a round-ended butter knife can NOT be used as a lethal weapon, then you know absolutely nothing about the potential for ANY rigid bladed weapon to inflict serious injury, or even death.
In fact, the nature of the knife itself is basically immaterial to any appraisal of the story. A deranged individual was threatening the lives of people with an offensive weapon. End of story.
November 16th, 2010 at 12:52 am Taniwha(Quote)
Really, ausGeoff, did you read anything about this incident at all, or even the half-dozen or so posts prior to yours?
The guy wasn’t acting deranged. Two women who were right there and could see Elijah and the cops perfectly from just a few meters away have testified that they didn’t even realise Elijah *had* a knife until they were told about it. He never brandished it at the cops, he never threatened anybody.
Further, these same witnesses have said that the police issued three warnings in rapid succession and then shot him immediately after the 3rd warning. From the first warning to the fatal shot was just a few seconds.
They said specifically that there was no negotiation at all, the police never tried to persuade him to surrender peacefully, never told him to lie down or drop the knife.
As I said in my previous comment, I reckon the cop actually pulled the trigger by accident; he may have been preloading it like you do with the button on a camera to engage the focus before taking a photo. It just feels like it to me, because there’s really no explanation for the sudden unprovoked shooting when they had only just caught up to the guy. I would have thought even the most trigger-happy cops would give it a minute or two to see if they could talk him into giving up peacefully before shooting him.
To reply to Oz in his earlier reply to me; I guess it’s difficult to understand but someone who is suffering from these kinds of paranoia isn’t necessarily raving mad all the time. He might be perfectly fine 95% of the time, then he might see or hear something that causes his brain to wig out and imagine all sorts of bad explanations for what he had seen or heard. This then causes a panic attack and engages his flight-or-fight response, so he runs for a few blocks and around a corner. By which time he has regained his perspective and realises it was nothing.
This might have been happening to him a couple of times a day, or a week. It would still be frightening enough to make you want to seek help but he’s not even remotely a danger to anyone. Unfortunately on this particular day he had an episode like this but this time, there really were cops chasing him. I’ve had experience with out of control panic responses to seemingly innocent situations, and if I think how I would feel in the grip of a panic attack if I realised that there really *was* a reason to be panicking… well I can’t imagine anything more terrifying.
A lot of people form their ideas about the police and criminals from a lifetime of cop shows on TV. With that as your ‘reality’, it’s all to easy to see every situation as black and white, and ‘there was a nutcase running around with a knife, and he got shot, but what did he expect’ is the easy no-thought-required response to this story.
But reality isn’t a TV show. Lots of situations occur that are not black and white, where cops need to make very quick decisions that are life-or-death. it’s ridiculous to think that every single cop is super intelligent and able to function flawlessly under pressure. The type of people in general who apply to the police are not brain surgeons in the first place, and a decent number of them are playing out boyhood fantasies formed from watching the same cops shows we all watch. And a lot of these have their own emotional issues and insecurities that result in bullying and anti-social behaviour. The idea of lording it over people in a leather uniform with a gun on your hip is the main reason some people want to be cops in the first place. I know that 95% of cops are not like this, but the bad ones do exist.
And especially in this country. You only have to look back to the 1980s to find a police force that was utterly corrupt to the core and used all their police powers to fatten their wallets and play power games with the worst kind of criminals as well.
Once you have all the facts that are available, this particular case seems quite clear-cut in that the cop did not make good decisions, did not follow procedure properly, and is responsible for the death of a totally innocent man. He was unarmed and known to have paranoid delusions about being chased by police when the police began chasing him in the first place.
And yes, police brutality still occurs every day. There’s a certain element in the force who are just nasty, thuggish people, and I doubt that it will ever go away, it just comes with the type of work they do.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:38 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
How can anyone seriously claim that a butter knife can’t be used to harm someone? It’s not like it was made out of playdoh or something.
@Taniwha
Valid points but I still reserve that we’ll have to wait and see what happens next.
Has any of the inquest been made public yet? I’m a bit weary of witness reports so close to the action, if I was there I’d probably have my eyes on the guns rather then scouring some guys hands.
And if the women really were six meters away and the police knew Elijah had a weapon and, as you say, was probably in the midst of a panic attack. Maybe the fact that he didn’t get the chance to threaten the public or officers was a direct result of the police’s actions.
Think about it from their view. Mentally unstable guy holding knife approaching two unarmed civilians and he was taken down just 6m away from them…
November 19th, 2010 at 12:32 am MQ(Quote)
It’s regrettable that, in hindsight, everyone becomes aware of the Elijah’s gentle nature and so forth. Condolences to the family.
However, at the time of the incident, police do not have a crystal ball. If the police had not acted decisively and the young man had stabbed a bystander in the throat or eye or done any harm at all, wouldn’t everyone be slamming the police for failing to protect the public?
Crucifying the police officer/s concerned is not going to bring Elijah back; it’s just compounding tragedy on tragedy.
I think this is well put: “It’s high time we stopped treating police like society’s punching bags.”
November 19th, 2010 at 3:56 am ausGeoff(Quote)
This is an excellent comment:
This is the very point that all the bleeding-heart do-gooders choose to ignore.
It’s easy to be wise after the event, and write sanctimonious opinions from behind the safety of one’s keyboard. I’m betting that not one of the (critical) respondents here would have the balls to do the sorts of jobs these cops have to do.
November 19th, 2010 at 6:13 am MQ(Quote)
Thanks AusGeoff.
It should also be noted that many accounts refer to the place of the incident as an “alley” whereas it’s a busy thoroughfare that serves as a large car parking area and walkway between the rear entry to a mall and a few blocks of other shops.
There are many exits and entrance ways. Google Cinders Lane, Armidale. Anyone could have stepped out into the middle of the incident before they realized what was happening.
November 19th, 2010 at 1:37 pm Impartial(Quote)
A few key points of information should be mentioned in responce to the last few comments that have been left here.
“If the police had not acted decisively and the young man had stabbed a bystander in the throat or eye”.
It would been hard for him to have stabbed someone in the throat or eye with a round tipped bread carving knife.
Yes, the officer may not have noticed it was a bread carving knife.
“Anyone could have stepped out into the middle of the incident before they knew what was happening”.
Anyone could have and “did” step out into the middle of the incident before they knew what was happening. As can be seen in one of the CCTV camera shots taken in Cinders lane approx 30 seconds before the shot was
fired (pulblished in two page report Sunday Herald 14 Nov).
Elijah, apparently holding the knife which is hard to make out, is walking straight towards a member of the public standing on the pavement infront of him and would have walked straight past that person in order to reach the area ahead where he was photographed lying on the road after being shot approx 50 metres further up Cinders lane.
That person was not attacked by Elijah, and neither for that matter were any of the other witnesses who were also standing nearby who gave statements to police afterwards.
Senior constable Rich, the officer who fired the shot, was well aware of this as he is seen walking behind Elijah in the footage with a clear view of what is happening up ahead. Some would say “benefit of the dought” could have applied here, especially considering Elijah never came closer than 8 metres to the officer.
November 19th, 2010 at 2:32 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Impartial
Uh what? It’s a butter knife. Rounded or not with minimal force I could easily stab someone in the throat or eye with one. Hell it’s easy enough to stab someone with a spoon if you tried a little harder.
Why are we pretending a butter knife is as dangerous as a pack of tissues?
As mentioned above, we can look back hindsight yes we can say he didn’t attack anyone. From the police’s perspective they’ve got an armed mentally unstable guy running through the public. Just because you walk past a few people doesn’t mean you’re not capable of attacking them (or grabbing one of them as a hostage).
Yes, yes maybe cuddly ‘I’m a loving husband’ Elijah might never have been capable of this, but this was ‘I’m a mentally unstable nutjob who thinks everyone is out to get me’ Elijah the police were dealing with.
Maybe it was only after Elijah passed a few people that the police decided to draw the line at risking public safety.
June 6th, 2011 at 1:53 pm summer(Quote)
i live in the town elijah was shot in and the general feeling in the town was backed up by the coroners findings and she recommended that charges be laid.
the actions of the police were innapropiate, elijah was given no time to respond to any requests and if you knew anything about the public health care system and its complete lack of function in regards to appropiate screening of those with mental illness youd know that your comment about ‘volentary’ or ‘involentary’ is completely misguided and not set in any real world context.
the armidale hospital is as overrun as any other public health care facility and emergency nurses are not pysciatrist, so you are wrong in your assumptions
June 8th, 2011 at 2:54 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
So… were charges ever laid against anyone?