the actions of the police were innapropiate, elijah was given no time to respond to any requests and if you knew anything about the public health care system and its complete lack of function in regards to appropiate screening of those with mental illness youd know that your comment about ‘volentary’ or ‘involentary’ is completely misguided and not set in any real world context.

the armidale hospital is as overrun as any other public health care facility and emergency nurses are not pysciatrist, so you are wrong in your assumptions

It would been hard for him to have stabbed someone in the throat or eye with a round tipped bread carving knife.

Uh what? It’s a butter knife. Rounded or not with minimal force I could easily stab someone in the throat or eye with one. Hell it’s easy enough to stab someone with a spoon if you tried a little harder.

Why are we pretending a butter knife is as dangerous as a pack of tissues?

That person was not attacked by Elijah, and neither for that matter were any of the other witnesses who were also standing nearby who gave statements to police afterwards.

As mentioned above, we can look back hindsight yes we can say he didn’t attack anyone. From the police’s perspective they’ve got an armed mentally unstable guy running through the public. Just because you walk past a few people doesn’t mean you’re not capable of attacking them (or grabbing one of them as a hostage).

Yes, yes maybe cuddly ‘I’m a loving husband’ Elijah might never have been capable of this, but this was ‘I’m a mentally unstable nutjob who thinks everyone is out to get me’ Elijah the police were dealing with.

Maybe it was only after Elijah passed a few people that the police decided to draw the line at risking public safety.

“If the police had not acted decisively and the young man had stabbed a bystander in the throat or eye”.

It would been hard for him to have stabbed someone in the throat or eye with a round tipped bread carving knife.
Yes, the officer may not have noticed it was a bread carving knife.

“Anyone could have stepped out into the middle of the incident before they knew what was happening”.

Anyone could have and “did” step out into the middle of the incident before they knew what was happening. As can be seen in one of the CCTV camera shots taken in Cinders lane approx 30 seconds before the shot was
fired (pulblished in two page report Sunday Herald 14 Nov).

Elijah, apparently holding the knife which is hard to make out, is walking straight towards a member of the public standing on the pavement infront of him and would have walked straight past that person in order to reach the area ahead where he was photographed lying on the road after being shot approx 50 metres further up Cinders lane.

That person was not attacked by Elijah, and neither for that matter were any of the other witnesses who were also standing nearby who gave statements to police afterwards.

Senior constable Rich, the officer who fired the shot, was well aware of this as he is seen walking behind Elijah in the footage with a clear view of what is happening up ahead. Some would say “benefit of the dought” could have applied here, especially considering Elijah never came closer than 8 metres to the officer.

It should also be noted that many accounts refer to the place of the incident as an “alley” whereas it’s a busy thoroughfare that serves as a large car parking area and walkway between the rear entry to a mall and a few blocks of other shops.

There are many exits and entrance ways. Google Cinders Lane, Armidale. Anyone could have stepped out into the middle of the incident before they realized what was happening.

MQ: However, at the time of the incident, police do not have a crystal ball. If the police had not acted decisively and the young man had stabbed a bystander in the throat or eye or done any harm at all, wouldn’t everyone be slamming the police for failing to protect the public?

This is the very point that all the bleeding-heart do-gooders choose to ignore.

It’s easy to be wise after the event, and write sanctimonious opinions from behind the safety of one’s keyboard. I’m betting that not one of the (critical) respondents here would have the balls to do the sorts of jobs these cops have to do.

However, at the time of the incident, police do not have a crystal ball. If the police had not acted decisively and the young man had stabbed a bystander in the throat or eye or done any harm at all, wouldn’t everyone be slamming the police for failing to protect the public?

Crucifying the police officer/s concerned is not going to bring Elijah back; it’s just compounding tragedy on tragedy.

I think this is well put: “It’s high time we stopped treating police like society’s punching bags.”

@Taniwha

Valid points but I still reserve that we’ll have to wait and see what happens next.

Has any of the inquest been made public yet? I’m a bit weary of witness reports so close to the action, if I was there I’d probably have my eyes on the guns rather then scouring some guys hands.

And if the women really were six meters away and the police knew Elijah had a weapon and, as you say, was probably in the midst of a panic attack. Maybe the fact that he didn’t get the chance to threaten the public or officers was a direct result of the police’s actions.

Think about it from their view. Mentally unstable guy holding knife approaching two unarmed civilians and he was taken down just 6m away from them…

A deranged individual was threatening the lives of people with an offensive weapon.End of story.

Really, ausGeoff, did you read anything about this incident at all, or even the half-dozen or so posts prior to yours?

The guy wasn’t acting deranged. Two women who were right there and could see Elijah and the cops perfectly from just a few meters away have testified that they didn’t even realise Elijah *had* a knife until they were told about it. He never brandished it at the cops, he never threatened anybody.

Further, these same witnesses have said that the police issued three warnings in rapid succession and then shot him immediately after the 3rd warning. From the first warning to the fatal shot was just a few seconds.

They said specifically that there was no negotiation at all, the police never tried to persuade him to surrender peacefully, never told him to lie down or drop the knife.

As I said in my previous comment, I reckon the cop actually pulled the trigger by accident; he may have been preloading it like you do with the button on a camera to engage the focus before taking a photo. It just feels like it to me, because there’s really no explanation for the sudden unprovoked shooting when they had only just caught up to the guy. I would have thought even the most trigger-happy cops would give it a minute or two to see if they could talk him into giving up peacefully before shooting him.

To reply to Oz in his earlier reply to me; I guess it’s difficult to understand but someone who is suffering from these kinds of paranoia isn’t necessarily raving mad all the time. He might be perfectly fine 95% of the time, then he might see or hear something that causes his brain to wig out and imagine all sorts of bad explanations for what he had seen or heard. This then causes a panic attack and engages his flight-or-fight response, so he runs for a few blocks and around a corner. By which time he has regained his perspective and realises it was nothing.

This might have been happening to him a couple of times a day, or a week. It would still be frightening enough to make you want to seek help but he’s not even remotely a danger to anyone. Unfortunately on this particular day he had an episode like this but this time, there really were cops chasing him. I’ve had experience with out of control panic responses to seemingly innocent situations, and if I think how I would feel in the grip of a panic attack if I realised that there really *was* a reason to be panicking… well I can’t imagine anything more terrifying.

A lot of people form their ideas about the police and criminals from a lifetime of cop shows on TV. With that as your ‘reality’, it’s all to easy to see every situation as black and white, and ‘there was a nutcase running around with a knife, and he got shot, but what did he expect’ is the easy no-thought-required response to this story.

But reality isn’t a TV show. Lots of situations occur that are not black and white, where cops need to make very quick decisions that are life-or-death. it’s ridiculous to think that every single cop is super intelligent and able to function flawlessly under pressure. The type of people in general who apply to the police are not brain surgeons in the first place, and a decent number of them are playing out boyhood fantasies formed from watching the same cops shows we all watch. And a lot of these have their own emotional issues and insecurities that result in bullying and anti-social behaviour. The idea of lording it over people in a leather uniform with a gun on your hip is the main reason some people want to be cops in the first place. I know that 95% of cops are not like this, but the bad ones do exist.

And especially in this country. You only have to look back to the 1980s to find a police force that was utterly corrupt to the core and used all their police powers to fatten their wallets and play power games with the worst kind of criminals as well.

Once you have all the facts that are available, this particular case seems quite clear-cut in that the cop did not make good decisions, did not follow procedure properly, and is responsible for the death of a totally innocent man. He was unarmed and known to have paranoid delusions about being chased by police when the police began chasing him in the first place.

And yes, police brutality still occurs every day. There’s a certain element in the force who are just nasty, thuggish people, and I doubt that it will ever go away, it just comes with the type of work they do.

Sujath: [...] please just delete this forum and talk about something else.

Sorry Sujath, but this forum is run by OzSoapbox, and as such he can say or do whatever he pleases. That’s the prerogative of anybody who takes the considerable time and effort to maintain a blog.

May I suggest that if you find its content and tone so offensive that you cease posting here. After all, nobody’s exactly forcing you to read it!

And as far as your last comment is concerned:

Sujath: A butter knife is not sharp at all and will not harm anyone.

You’re missing a very salient point here. The nature of the knife wasn’t discovered until after Mr Holcombe was shot by police (and he dropped it). Considering that this drama unfolded in a couple of minutes, do you really think that police could be expected to assess the type of knife picked up by Mr Holcombe?

A knife is a knife, and if you truly believe that a round-ended butter knife can NOT be used as a lethal weapon, then you know absolutely nothing about the potential for ANY rigid bladed weapon to inflict serious injury, or even death.

In fact, the nature of the knife itself is basically immaterial to any appraisal of the story. A deranged individual was threatening the lives of people with an offensive weapon. End of story.

An butter knife is not sharp at all and will not harm anyone, second of all any person with a mental disablity who is being chased by cops will have done the same and last please just delete this forum and talk about something else

I hadn’t had a chance to respond to a lot of the comments over the weekend. Didn’t see her reply until I got through some other comments.

I try to reply to direct comments as they’re published but occasionally when I miss a few days there’s quite a lot for me to catch up on.

So, this is not a fugitive looney who had been held by police but escaped. He was obviously completely peaceful but just confused and nervous.

If turning yourself into police and asking to be taken to a mental hospital, then leaving because of paranoid delusions isn’t being a looney, then what is?

Sure he might not have been a fugitive but if this was the day to day life of Elijah what the hell was he doing running around on his own?

He was not sane, but he wasn’t threatening anyone prior to this, he was just walking down the street.

This is what I believe to be the cornerstone of the problem. Elijah definitely sounds like he shouldn’t have been free to roam around on his own.

The police deal with all sorts of people and taking no chances with mentally unstable people is fair play as far as I’m concerned. In the heat of the moment you have no idea what mental nutjobs are capable of and traversing 15m to attack someone with a knife is childs play.

It’s certainly going to beat out someone trying to pull out a gun and take a shot.

The outcome of the trial will be interesting and whatever the verdict is I’ll respect it. I still reserve the opinion though that there were multiple failures on both sides of this case that contributed to his death. Blaming the police outright is just scapegoating Elijah’s personal problems.

The only time people like Oz wake up to reality is when they get involved in something with the police themselves and get the shit beat out of them at the station for no reason. Then you see what the police and the justice system are really all about.

Yes, yes because this goes on all the time doesn’t it.

The carrying of what could be construed as a weapon is not justification alone for deadly force being applied. There has to be a credible threat to the lives of the Officers or Civilians.

Having an irrational fear and drawing a knife on police officers is a credibile threat. What, does an officer or civilian have to die before people will accept that brandishing a knife is threatening?

Your infantile interpretations of the event and Police procedures are an insult, not just to the family of the deceased, but also to professional Police Officers who believe the taking of life is a last resort.

Well thankyou captain ‘I speak on behalf of the entire police force’.

Way to marginalise any police officers who aren’t willing to take their chances with a knife wielding assailant.

If one combines your ignorance with the juvenile tough guy posturing on display then my thoughts turn from Elijah’s mental state to yours.

My mental state is fine, I’m perfectly aware that if I pulled out a knife on police there’s a good chance I’d be shot. Meanwhile Elijah is dead.

I know which horse I’d be backing.

Multiple witnesses have said that Elijah was at least 15m away from police when he was shot. That’s 45ft in American and a whole lot further than the 21 foot number that seems to be the magical license to murder people mentioned over and over by Oz on this page.

So, even if the guy was acting in a threatening way and verbally telling police he was going to stab them, he was still too far to be any real threat.

But he wasn’t even doing that. There’s a lot of ‘facts’ mentioned by Oz that are untrue, it’s pretty bizarre.

First, Elijah stole his father’s car but later on *turned himself* in to the cop station. He was never picked up. He suggested they take him to the hospital to see a psychiatrist, completely voluntarily.

Second, he never ‘escaped’ from the hospital. After waiting there for a while he asked a nurse if he was allowed to leave, and she said he was there voluntarily so she couldn’t force him to stay. He left, obviously a bad decision on his part but perhaps his paranoid delusions had returned in full.

So, this is not a fugitive looney who had been held by police but escaped. He was obviously completely peaceful but just confused and nervous.

We can’t imagine, then, what he thought as he was suddenly chased by two plainclothes police who were shouting at him. They may have identified themselves as cops, but remember his paranoia was particularly related to police. I bet he shat his pants and just started to run.

Further, when he ran into the coffee shop, witnesses have now said that the chasing police officer already had his gun drawn and held close to his chest in both hands, pointing up in the classic tv-show cop chase position.

So now he knows these two guys chasing him, in mufti but saying they are cops, have got guns. Great. It’s no wonder that he picked up a bread knife from the cafe he ran through. He was not sane, but he wasn’t threatening anyone prior to this, he was just walking down the street.

So the cops with their guns out chasing an unarmed, non-aggressive person SEE him pick up a bread-knife in a panic, and they chose to pursue him further. They corner him in an alley, and without being in *any* actual danger one of them decides to shoo the guy. It hits his heart and he dies instantly.

The cops here did almost everything they could to make the situation as bad as possible. I do have sympathy with police, I think they do a horrific job and the mental strain of it would probably put me in the mental hospital in a week. But they are trained very specifically in this type of pursuit and what they did was just incompetent and stupid.

They should never have had their guns out when Elijah first started to run. They certainly shouldn’t have shot him when he was cornered. He wasn’t making any threats or slashing at them with the knife. He was too far away to be any real threat with a knife.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the cop pulled the trigger by accident, but the real mistake was having the gun drawn at all during the entire chase. I don’t like to slag the police off but it just sounds like typical testosterone overload that so many cops seem to display when they have a gun and can play tv-cop-show with it.

It certainly sounds at this stage like the cop is going to stand trial. It’s a shame, because ultimately the victim should be in a hospital getting treatment right now, instead of being in the ground rotting.

Anyway, the original post by Oz was typical reactionary dribbling that I would expect to hear from my old man. Not in full possession of the facts, and happy to take the easy answers route. Tasering people can kill them, but it’s much easier to just say ‘taser the bugger’ than actually try and solve problems.

The only time people like Oz wake up to reality is when they get involved in something with the police themselves and get the shit beat out of them at the station for no reason. Then you see what the police and the justice system are really all about.

Ozsoapbox, you are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, to the elementary legal restrictions on the discharge of a firearm. The carrying of what could be construed as a weapon is not justification alone for deadly force being applied. There has to be a credible threat to the lives of the Officers or Civilians.

The determination of whether that threat exists only occurs after much analysis and argument. I could on about the need to listen to witnesses and….but why bother, that obviously is just so much blather to you.

Why worry about such technicalities when you can vomit forth a torrent of uninformed bile and stupidity. Why worry about the discovery of the facts when this is really all about YOU and your witless opinions.

Indeed, what’s amazing to me is that you actually believe you’re supporting the Police with your buffoonish commentary. Let me disabuse you of that notion. Your infantile interpretations of the event and Police procedures are an insult, not just to the family of the deceased, but also to professional Police Officers who believe the taking of life is a last resort.

If one combines your ignorance with the juvenile tough guy posturing on display then my thoughts turn from Elijah’s mental state to yours. I suspect that the reason you are so ignorant about mental illness is that you’re afraid you may recognise the symptoms if you learn more.

But by all means continue with your commentary. I’m sure that all Australia waits breathlessly for the next instalment from a guy whose thoughts derive as much from his bowel movements as they do his head.

Your presumption the coroner was refering to the police officer who fired the fatal shot was correct.