"18 Taiwanese men hold orgy party on TRA train
Trains in Taiwan are usually pretty clean. There’s garbage collectors who run through the trains every hour or so and I’ve yet to walk into a carriage and find my seat dirty or damaged.
That said, be warned the next time you board a Taiwan Rail Administration (TRA) train that you might be sitting in the aftermath of a Taiwanese sex orgy.
It’s what you can’t see that’ll do your head in…
Sometime over the last few weeks a bunch of Taiwanese nerds got together on an online forum and cobbled together a plan to rent a private TRA train carriage, hire a prostitute and hold an eighty minute sex orgy party.
Booked on the 19th of February, the group hired out a TRA carriage on a service between Taipei (up in Taiwan’s north) and Jhunan (down in central Taiwan’s Miaoli County).
At a cost of $800 TWD each, 18 men dressed in suits boarded the privately rented carriage (which comes with a sofa, table and fridge). At Yingge station (a few stations out from Taipei Main), a 19 year old female (photo right, don’t ask me how Apple Daily got her photo!) boarded the carriage and just what precisely happened in the next 80 minutes before the train reached Jhunan is up in the air.
The incident came to light after some orgy attendees were busted discussing the event on a blog. DPP Legislator Yeh Yi-tsing (葉宜津) was tipped off (by whom remains a mystery) to the discussion and from there a police investigation followed.
The train carriage in question was cordoned off and inspected. Using “multi-wave field light’, inspectors only managed to find traces of cleaning fluid.
Not surprising when you consider that TRA carriages are likely cleaned on a daily basis.
Video surveillance confirmed that 18 men and one women boarded and disembarked from the carriage but pending further admission from those involved, what exactly transpired in the carriage remains unclear.
Initially Apple Daily got in contact with one of those discussing the orgy on blog, some guy named Cai (Tsai) Yulin (photo right).
Cai initially denied anything dodgy took place, alleging that ‘nothing remotely naughty happened during the ride‘.
A short time later Cai then changed his story and admitted that the orgy only went so far as to involve the ‘the participation of man touching woman‘, followed by condom masturbation.
Cai stressed that because there was no penetration, none of what transpired constituted sexual behaviour and thus they did nothing illegal (prostitution is illegal in Taiwan).
Police initially called on other orgy participants to come forward and detail exactly what happened, but after nobody came forward I believe they are now going over IP addresses of those involved from their online discussions in order to trace them. Once found the police will bring them in for questioning.
At one point during the 80 minute train ride a TRA officer did attempt to board the carriage, but found that the doors had been locked from the inside.
Shrugging his shoulders and figuring it was none of his business, the TRA officer walked off.
In response to the incident, the TRA have announced plans to
revise the company’s standardized lease forms to include provisions that people who charter TRA carriages for their exclusive use are required to comply with public order and decency laws and regulations.
Good one guys… one would think complying with laws on a privately rented train carriage would be a given – but apparently not.
The private carriages that the TRA make available for rent do not have CCTV fitted and given that the carriage was only inspected after it was cleaned up by the TRA, it appears that the only way the truth is going to come out is if those who participated come clean.
Given that such an admission would incriminate themselves, I think we all know how interviews of those involved are going to turn out.
‘We all sat around an iPad and watched Doraemon cartoons the entire trip, honest!’
At best, if penetration can’t be proven those involved walk free and face a mere 300 TWD ($10 USD) fine for locking the doors, which is a violation of the Social Order Maintenance Act.
As far as the TRA’s Railway Regulations go, holding a sex orgy in one of their carriages (without penetration) carries nothing more severe than possible future denial of the TRA’s services.
Evidently it’s about $7000-$8000 TWD ($236-$270 USD) to hire a TRA carriage between Taipei and Jhunan and with the entry charge of $800 generating $14,400 TWD ($487 USD) in revenue, that means (assuming there were no other costs) the 19yo woman was paid roughly $6,400 TWD ($216 USD).
Not bad for 80 minutes work, if you discount the ‘ewwww that’s totally gross!‘ factor.
The Apple Daily managed to interview some guy who claimed to have ‘attended such wild parties‘ and all he had to say was ‘NT$800 was “impossibly cheap” and it was “impossible for a woman to have sex with 18 men in 80 minutes‘.
18 men and 80 minutes puts it at roughly 4:30 minutes a pop… not impossible. Freaking gross yeah… but impossible? Hardly.
As for the cheap claim… well I dunno what the going rate is but Yingge is pretty much on the outskirts of Taipei County and I guess subsequently cheaper than either Taoyuan or Taipei cities.
What strikes me as most revealing however, is that this guy claims he’s ‘attended such wild parties‘. Seriously, how frequently are sex orgies held on public trains here?!
And for how long has this been going on!?
Dunno about you but I’m never going to look at a passing train in Taiwan the same way again… if the train carriage is a’rockin – don’t come a’knockin CATCH A FREAKING TAXI!
After being identified, Cai (Tsai) was supposed to call into a police station for an interview on Sunday. Instead he met in secret with other participants of the orgy in a parking lot near Ximending, presumably to get their stories straight for the police.
After the press got wind of it and rocked up, Cai and friends fled. Shortly after two of those at the meeting gave themselves up and confessed to police what went on in the train carriage:
All the male participants were wearing suits and were asked to pay NT$800 to be admitted into the party inside the Juguang train carriage at around 3:20 p.m. on Feb. 19.
Some 10 minutes later, two female assistants distributed condoms and mouthwash to them.
When a woman, 170 centimeters tall and weighing 50 kilograms, showed up in the train carriage, the male members were at loss for what to do. Then Tsai took the initiative to show them how to flirt with her, causing other members to follow suit.
As a result, the woman had sex with all 18 men who paid the admission fee before the train reached Zhunan Station after an 80-minute ride.
Here’s another account:
Tsai, hosted what was said to be a “sex party” in a chartered carriage of a Taiwan Railways Administration (TRA) train on Feb. 19.
A total of 25 people, including the host, three bouncers, and two female assistants, were involved in the party.
On Feb. 19, after boarding the train, the participants first handed over their cellphones to Tsai for “safekeeping” before they were treated to a “foreplay demonstration” by their host.
Tsai then covered the carriage floor with large towels and ordered his female assistants to give the participants condoms and lubricant jelly before they sprang into action.
Police investigators later picked up a set of clothes, presumably worn by the woman before the activities, bottles of mouth wash, tubes of lubricant jelly, condoms, and towels used during the “sex party.” A computer was also removed from Tsai’s home.
The underage hooker thing has led to Cai being arrested ‘on charges of violating public order and decency laws and regulations’.
According to the prosecutor assigned the case, the host’s offer of service and demands for payment, as well as the transfer of money by the participants constitute a transaction.
As such, the host may be accused of “pimping,” which carries a maximum sentence of five years’ imprisonment under the country’s Criminal Code.
Under the Regulations for the Prevention of Juvenile Sex Transactions, a person who tries to make pecuniary gains by arranging for people younger than 18 to have sex with others can be sentenced to anywhere between three and 10 years behind bars.
The underage girl has also been charged with ‘violation of the Social Order Maintenance Act (社會秩序維護法) and of the Children and Youth Welfare Act (兒童及少年福利法)’ after she ‘told the Railway Police Bureau earlier in the day that the sex was consensual’.
And for those who took part?
The participants in the party, some of whom said to be well educated people with higher or even doctoral degrees, may be sentenced to short prison terms, fined and have their identities exposed for having sex with a minor.
The participants in the “sex party” may be sentenced to up to one year behind bars.
Moral of the story: Don’t participate in underage gangbangs…
Three bouncers ‘male assistants who are suspected of maintaining order in the carriage‘ and two female assistants ‘who stood by and provided condoms and towels‘ Yulin was working with, were also indicted on the same charges. Prosecutors have asked for a two-month jail term for their part in the orgy.
Meanwhile the rest of the men who participated and actually had sex with the underage girl get off scott free because ‘ there was no evidence that they knew she was under the age of 18‘.
…fair enough I guess. Although six-months for organising an underage gangbang seems a bit light.
I’m not sure on what grounds his helpers plead they weren’t guilty but orgy organiser and ringleader Tsai Yu-lin (蔡育林)
was accused of holding an orgy for profit, based on prosecutors’ evidence that there was money leftover after the party and the funds were not returned to the participants.
However, Tsai said in court he never intended to profit from the party. He said he had planned to return the surplus to the participants, but later felt it was too much trouble and so treated everyone to dinner instead.
Lol, no profit no crime? And can you imagine sitting around a dinner table with these guys all discussing the days events after the fact… ewww much?
Hopefully the judge sees through the shenanigans and gives this guy what he deserves.
Any corrections are welcome and can be published below as a comment.
February 26th, 2012 at 11:13 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
Nope. Nuthin’ happened. Taiwanese trains never enter tunnels. NEVER EVER EVER! (well… at least, not without donning a condom…)
February 27th, 2012 at 9:02 am lemmiwinks(Quote)
I was thinking they might have gone for a bit of bukakai action but if the only fluid traces found were of the cleaning type, then I guess not!
February 27th, 2012 at 7:13 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
Interesting here is your moralistic judgement of what supposedly transpired as ‘gross’.
Let’s see: all participants were there voluntarily including the lady. There was also allegedly two female attendants present and finally cameras and phones were forbidden meaning that the lady in question remains anonymous and could not later be bribed or threatened.
It seems that everyone involved had a good clean time and I think we can presume that the Lady involved was compensated at a price she found agreeable for the work involved.
Furthermore, the picture at the top of thr article is from a New Media animation. Note the picture suggests the Lady uncomfortable and seemingly trying to resist – an utter fabrication devoid of any real information about her.
Finally, the TRA is revising its laws so as to not lose face from making money from leasing it’s cars to clients who wished to engage in a sex party.
The TRA is protecting its reputation from the hypocritical double standard I see often in Taiwan – “I’ll do what I like but when others get caught I’ll act outraged”. Your article just feeds on that hypocrisy.
No offense but your posts are usually much better than this.
February 27th, 2012 at 10:46 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Ben Goren
My objection is purely on a physical level. Morals doesn’t even factor into the simple fact that 18 guys slamming a hole in one in 80 minutes is fucking gross.
Considering there’s no way I’d participate in an 18 man orgy, what hypocrisy are you talking about?
Mate you couldn’t even pay me enough to be in the same room with 18 desperados flogging a dead horse.
If you want to have gangbangs do it at home, not on a bloody public train. And I know it was a privately rented carriage, but the TRA staff still have to walk through mid-journey – nobody deserves having to walk in on that looney tunes shit whilst on the clock.
I suppose that’s why Apple Daily had her photos up before even the police knew who she was. These virgins were discussing it all on a publicly viewable blog.
I think I heard on the TV news today that two of the men confessed they had sex. Everybody else contacted is still denying anything took place (married?).
February 27th, 2012 at 11:10 pm Whatthehell(Quote)
I, (and many others), would undoubtedly have to agree with OZ on this one. Despite her being compensated etc, the entire notion is disgusting.
You should leave such things for the privacy of your own home and not in the public let alone public transport.
February 28th, 2012 at 12:35 am blobOfNeurons(Quote)
Nobody finds this unsettling?
February 28th, 2012 at 3:55 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I find it a little unsettling in that a legislator has to get involved before the TRA did anything… and then there’s the fact that the police were so quickly able to IP trace everyone (I’m assuming it was a Taiwanese hosted blog)…
…but the disgust at an eighteen man orgy on a train compels me to override any such feeling of unsettlement. I know I should care more but I don’t.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:25 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
Awww…. OZ… I know you…
You’re just upset because you weren’t invited!
HAHAHAHA.
Let’s see now, the LAST time I got involved in one of these situations was at a KTV with that guy driving me around in his Mercedes E-class, and these ladies were taking turns on my lap, and… oh, nevermind!!!
February 29th, 2012 at 12:30 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Update: Turns out the girl involved was underage and following that revelation Cai has been arrested!
February 29th, 2012 at 12:42 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
Yeah, I just read that in the TT too. That’s the game changer right there. You obviously know that I’m not one to pass judgement on consensual, safe and respectful sexual activities between adults but the girl in question is on the wrong side of the law in this case.
That she consented poses a difficult moral question but legally it’s now an open and shut case according to current laws.
BTW that’s some name for a statute -’Sexual Morality Law’! Sounds like something you might find in a deeply ultra religious society.
What is the age of consent in Taiwan anyway? In the UK sex is banned before 16. Is it 18 here?
February 29th, 2012 at 12:54 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
That’s odd, Wikipedia states it’s 16.
I think they’re going to get them on prostitution and pimping but it is curious.
Personally I stick by my ‘ew it’s gross’ sentiment. In their own homes or whatever sure go for your life but not on a public train ffs.
As for using a seventeen year old highschool dropout – geez that’s some mental scarring there. Her life’s buggered… literally.
Doing 18 guys on a train… that’s probably as good as it’s going to get.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:27 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
OZ – Chububobcat is on a 3 hour long train to Hualien right now. Gad… I hope he doesn’t get stuck to his seat by some mysterious substance! ACK!
Keep us all updated on this story. It’s fascinating!
February 29th, 2012 at 1:44 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
“The age of consent in Taiwan is 16 regardless of sex. The sentence is reduced or exempted if the offender is under 19. If the offender is under 18, it’s an offense indictable only upon a complaint.”
I was wrong then in my last comment. Maybe that’s why the police are going to press charges under the Social Order And Maintenance Act and Children and Youth Welfare Act in the Juvenile Court. I think you’re probably right that Tsai and the others will be charged with pimping and contravention of the SOMA. The TRA might even catch some flack but probably not legally – a severe public slap down without a penalty.
I still don’t know where you got the info that the girl in question was a highschool drop out and that she had sex with all eighteen of them. Source and reliability of said source?
And, ok, you think it’s gross but who are we to say that she’s got mental scarring and her life will be buggered? (not to mention the crudity of that particular comment).
Come on Oz, aren’t we are jumping to rather judgmental conclusions here? My concern now lies with the way the media will destroy this young woman’s life far far more than the events on the train.
This is shaping up to be a classic case of character assassination pretty much because the media is bored … how about holding a torch to those fuckers making money on the sales of ‘news’ rags at the expense of this girl?
February 29th, 2012 at 8:21 pm mike(Quote)
“Nobody finds this unsettling?”
I find it “bad”, but not unexpected.
“Personally I stick by my ‘ew it’s gross’ sentiment.”
Agreed: a girl on a train with 18 of these sexual spastics? Minging. But I’d have said “maintain” rather than “stick” (too close to “sticky”). Keep your semantics buttoned up.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:46 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Ben
Perhaps, I’ve heard this girl has a history of being the entertainment at gangbang parties… can’t confirm it with a news source just yet though.
If that is the case though, she’s already messed up. Nobody enjoys getting ploughed by 18 guys who need to be show what to do. You take that on as a career because you’ve got serious issues.
That was from one of the cited news articles.
I’m personally glad the media are exposing this one. Organisers of other pedo parties beware.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:40 am Ben Goren(Quote)
Ok, it seems like two elements of this story are the engine for the media going into frenzy mode.
1. The girl was above legal age but not by much and may have been subtly or not so subtly coerced into being involved. She seems to have been exploited whether she thought it to be of her own free will.
Furthermore her age makes many parents feel uncomfortable because they may have daughters that age and worry what they may be doing that they don’t know.
2. The age and number of men involved. If it had been just the girl and one guy in his mid-twenties the story would have had no legs other than ‘they’re so naughty’ titters.
My concern is with the way the media is reporting this and the impact that will have on what you claim is already a damaged and vulnerable young lady. Face it, she’d need a name change after this is over to even think about some kind of normal life. Or she sells the story to the highest bidder, makes a few cool mil and gets the hell out of Taiwan for good.
From what you say the media are saying this also smacks of slut-shaming. Would you say from your impression that they guys involved (not mention the bouncers and waitresses) are getting equally slammed by the media?
And that’s my beef really. I certainly don’t condone it because, as I later learned, it involves a young person vulnerable to exploitation. I also think that it was a stunning bad choice of venue for that kind of activity.
Finally, most of my ire is directed at the media who, let’s face it, are not exactly known for fact checking before getting down to the income generating game of character assassination. The law needs to be followed and this girl’s anonymity (please don’t tell me they’re already named her) needs to be protected and she needs help and care but most of all the ability to talk with someone who will just listen and not judge her.
I am pessimistic that she will get even that basic level of respect.
Here’s my question Oz: if this was a case of say a 25 year old woman, waiters, bouncers and 18 men involved over a six hour time span at a Motel what do you think would be the media’s reaction?
(I don’t know off hand so I’m interested to know what you think it might be)
March 1st, 2012 at 2:19 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
The guys involved maybe but the ringleader certainly seems to have been slammed equally (if not more) than the girl.
Thus far I’ve read she fished online for one night stands and from all accounts appeared to be a genuine prostitute (at 17!). Kinda makes you wonder what the parents thought she was doing all this time (assuming she lived at home).
Given that this already no doubt is happening all over Taiwan and nobody is batting an eyelid, I’d say the reaction is non-existant.
Apart from the illegal prostitution, what you do in a Motel is a wee different to a public train.
March 1st, 2012 at 2:54 pm mike(Quote)
Forget the girl’s parents – what about the parents of these so-called “men”? How the hell do you get all the way through life to adulthood and think it’d be great to share one girl with 17 other men?
“I certainly don’t condone it because, as I later learned, it involves a young person vulnerable to exploitation. I also think that it was a stunning bad choice of venue for that kind of activity.”
So if the girl had been, say 25, and it had happened in a motel, then it would have been OK by you?
I say that’s sick: if someone asked me to join a gangbang party of 17 other guys on one girl, I wouldn’t ask any questions about venue or payment or consent.
No. I’d drop him like the sack of rotten shit that he is.
March 1st, 2012 at 4:57 pm vin(Quote)
Appreciate the post, Oz, and the comments, Ben. I’ve linked to you, Oz, in my own post on the topic.
Despite the liabilites the girl has incurred and will further incur, I think there’s a definite upside to this story.
March 1st, 2012 at
[...] closed and sealed, towels were laid on the floor, and no semen stains were found. Oz Soapbox’s blog post on the subject provides interpretation, information from various sources, and an interesting [...]
March 1st, 2012 at 5:38 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
Great post Vin … love the way the PRC used it to try and get a dig in at the Japanese lol. I agree that there may be an upside if the nation holds a mirror its own hypocrisy on all matters sexual and gender related.
Not sure that will happen because, condemning out of hand absent full information and holier-than-thou tut tuting seem to be the gut reactions of a lot of people (and the norm for public reactions to these kinds of things in Taiwan hence the double standard).
I’m going to throw one out there now with the understanding that I’ll be crucified for it but …
As the girl was above the legal age, what if the girl was not coerced, was entirely willing and, working from the suggestions in Vin’s post, perhaps even enjoyed it as well as happily pocketing the money as a result, and if proper sexual health precautions were taken and the event featured no abuse or disrespect, what beef is there aside from that it happened on a public train?
What if she didn’t have a particularly cruel or abusive childhood but just wasn’t particularly academically driven and what if other’s complements of her physical assets led her to the conclusion that there was another way to make money and what if she happened to have an unusually high sex drive?
No-one wants to even ask these questions. Instead all I see is instant condemnation and a terrible fear of young female sexuality:
1. She’s a child!!!! Um .. above legal age for sex and last time I checked 17 is practically young adult. It is adults that define the parameters of what constitues ‘childhood’ regardless of the biological and mental level of maturity of the individual.
2. 18 Men ewwww that’s gross! Um .. it certainly is if no-one used protection and she was being forced to serve more than two men at a time (that number is mine but it can vary according to each person’s personal sexual preferences and comfort levels). As far as we know it was a one-by-one affair.
And I reiterate … what does anyone actually know FOR SURE about what went on behind those curtains? Video / pictures or didn’t happen like you said it did. I think we’ll have to wait for the court proceedings to get FACTS which, er, are, you know, important things to obtain before making JUDGEMENTS.
So what are we left with? On a public train? That’s just not right.
OK … now you can go ahead and flame me.
March 1st, 2012 at 9:53 pm mike(Quote)
“OK … now you can go ahead and flame me.”
What all 18 of us?
Your naive “what ifs” on the little Eloi girl miss the point entirely: what sort of character gets excited about taking turns with 17 other ghouls to repeatedly bone some daft little daffodil?
I’m no prude, but there is all the difference in the world between getting your leg over from time to time, and treating a girl like a human toilet.
It takes evil to get excited about something like that, and you should recognize it when it grins at you from the headlines, you stupid little idiot.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:08 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
Oz, thanks for your impressions and your answers to my questions. The media might even be feeling spoilt for choice what with the Miyako Beatings, Linsanity and TRAGate running concurrently!
Meanwhile, ROC army personnel selling military secrets to China through Taisang businessmen gets shunted to page 116 …
March 2nd, 2012 at 1:54 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
I think not only is the fact that happened on a public train worthy of ‘ewwww!’, but the act itself.
18 guys, 1 girl… that’s not kosher – I don’t care where they’re doing it.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:10 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Ben
Apparently the TRA do. They’re now planning to sue those involved.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:47 am vin(Quote)
Problem is, Mike, she certainly doesn’t see herself as that or as being treated like that. She likely feels empowered (“I made 18 guys come and could have made 100 come”). Which doesn’t make her an Eloi girl.
To a 17-year-old who likely comes from a family that neglected or abused her, it would be a bit difficult to understand the difference between being wanted and being respected — the rush of the sense of empowerment would obliterate such distinctions.
I don’t see that this makes her inferior in any way to her many female Taiwanese peers whom I’ve taught who speak English in quiet, halting voices, go to the buhsiban though they don’t really want to, and who fear openly defying their parents, teachers, or just about anyone.
At least this girl made, it seems, an own choice.
And though I doubt it’s the case, there’s always a chance that, as Ben suggested could be true, she has a very high sex drive that further complicates psychological issues.
Though you say you’re not one, I’d suggest you in fact are a prude – not a sexual one first, but rather an intellectual one. First, there are your mechanistic assumptions and their underlying paternalism, which I just explained completely miss the psychology involved.
Those who eschew the psychology certainly are not looking at sex in any 3-D way. And what but a fearful prudishness would make one not want to look at sex in 3-D?
Second, your Kant-rigid standards simply don’t apply where human psychology – meaning (leaving off with dualism) mind and body – are concerned.
You’re not acknowledging at all the lure of the defense mechanism of compartmentalization when you label these guys “ghouls.” Some use compartmentalization to unleash atavistic physical desires, others to quarantine elements of being and life so that they can tout standards – and thus automatically, via limiting the scope for consideration, be “right.”
You just compartmentalize differently is what I’m saying. And I wonder if it isn’t discomfort at your unacknowledged kinship with these guys that has you barfing on them.
The guys are “ghouls”; the girl is an “Eloi” and a “daft little daffodil”; and Ben’s a “stupid little idiot.” I have a different characterization to replace these dubious ones: You’re a bully.
Those who go tossing around the word “evil” are among the ones most prone to perpetrating it.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:57 am Ben Goren(Quote)
@Vin
Amen.
March 2nd, 2012 at 5:05 am mike(Quote)
“Problem is, Mike, she certainly doesn’t see herself as that or as being treated like that.”
Her evaluation of how she was treated is her own “problem” and it does not dissuade me from my evaluation of what they did to her.
“I don’t see that this makes her inferior…”
It doesn’t. That’s your misreading; I don’t think her treatment renders her “inferior”, my point was what participating in this act says about the character of the so-called “men”.
“Those who eschew the psychology certainly are not looking at sex in any 3-D way.”
And those who eschew the morality of sexual behaviour certainly are not looking at sex in broader context. I did not “eschew” the girl’s psychology, I regard it as irrelevant to judging the character of the men.
“And what but a fearful prudishness would make one not want to look at sex in 3-D?”
Easy: 34D tits – and having had my dick lovingly sucked between them for free.
That’s what, asshole.
But more to the point: having had sex with girls I actually loved, or at least felt some affection for. Might be a bit too “exotic” for you though I imagine.
“You’re not acknowledging at all the lure of the defense mechanism of compartmentalization when you label these guys “ghouls.” Some use compartmentalization to unleash atavistic physical desires, others to quarantine elements of being and life so that they can tout standards – and thus automatically, via limiting the scope for consideration, be “right.”…”
Ah, the old Fraudian nonsense. Here try this: you’re not acknowledging your defense mechanism of disappear-up-your-own-arse-ilization when you insinuate that standards are essentially self-serving. Your accusation is itself its own example.
“And I wonder if it isn’t discomfort at your unacknowledged kinship with these guys that has you barfing on them.”
Typical: nobody can pass a judgement without it being “projection”: I wonder if your “wonder” is not itself a wonder of the possibility of kinship. But if it is, then all I’ve got for you is – Kurtz’s dying breath: “The horror! The horror!”
“The guys are “ghouls”…”
They are.
“…the girl is an “Eloi” and a “daft little daffodil”…”
She is.
“…and Ben’s a “stupid little idiot.”…”
He certainly is. You wouldn’t believe the lengths I went to with him (at his old blog and in private email) in all politeness and perfect patience.
“I have a different characterization to replace these dubious ones: You’re a bully.”
Not at all: a bully is someone who picks on people who can’t fight back – but I regularly argue with people who can and will defend themselves.
And yes, sometimes they are bigger than me. And yes, sometimes I am rude. But here’s the crux: unlike you, Ben and plenty of others, I don’t reject comments or ban people merely for making an argument, even if they do insult me. Ever.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:49 pm vin(Quote)
What does insulting people have to do with making an argument? Why is it necessary? Or, if you agree that it’s not necessary, what does it add to persuasiveness?
March 2nd, 2012 at 5:11 pm mike(Quote)
“…what does it add to persuasiveness?”
The visceral integrity of intellect and emotion.
March 2nd, 2012 at 5:40 pm Ben Goren(Quote)
visceral – relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect: the voters’ visceral fear of change.
integrity – the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness: he is known to be a man of integrity.
intellect – the faculty of reasoning and understanding objectively, esp. with regard to abstract or academic matters: he was a man of action rather than of intellect.
emotion – a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one’s circumstances, mood, or relationships with others
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:47 pm mike(Quote)
The dictionary is not philosophy for dummies, Ben.
March 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 am vin(Quote)
That’s correct, Mike. The dictionary is the final authority on the meaning of words. And Ben’s comment in no way suggested otherwise.
But let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re not trying to pull a straw-man argument here. Your answer to my question on what attacking people might add to persuasiveness was “The visceral integrity of intellect and emotion.”
As dictionary definitions demonstrate (all the ones that I checked, and I checked half a dozen), “visceral integrity of intellect” is contradictory – and adding “and emotion” doesn’t negate that “visceral” and “intellect” are irreparably at odds with each other.
Why not just admit that the dictionary and Ben caught you out?
To do otherwise would suggest that you in fact WERE trying to pull a straw-man argument – and were resorting yet again to ad hominem slagging-off of another to cover the intellectual inconsistencies and insufficiencies of your argument.
Emotion unmediated by intellectual integrity: that’s what your writing, in the samples here, anyway, is. Compulsive put-downs of persons. Put-downs with little or no evidenced argument of arguments that don’t accord with your preferences. And glaring inconsistencies.
To cite one instance of the latter: First, the 18 guys are “sexual spastics” who are “minging.” In a later comment, you call them “ghouls.” And still further on, you insist they’re “ghouls.” Well, which are they?
Minging spastics or ghouls? Or am I resorting to the dictionary because I lack my own philosophy when I point out that there’s no logical reconciling of “minging” “spastics” as a description for ghouls?
If you want more, I’ll give you more – if you’re not rude. And when I have time: give me up to two weeks; no way your illogic merits priority over lots of other things to do in life.
But why not just save both of us time for better things by admitting the obvious: Ben caught you out?
Otherwise, you indeed were pulling a straw-man argument; and thus, I would question your honesty and integrity – in other words, your character. And would advise you of this: Your blindness (or else your canny dishonesty) will persist until you quit viewing viciousness as a hallmark of honesty and tough-mindedness.
March 3rd, 2012 at 3:01 am vin(Quote)
True, Ben, that this is the dominant tendency here, but I think each incident like this gets more people to stop seeing things as black-and-white.
Complicated events demand more nuanced interpretation, and this event certainly has complicating factors. And I have indeed gotten some surprisingly nuanced responses from my students on this event.
Anyway, glad you liked the post, and thanks.
March 3rd, 2012 at 5:08 am mike(Quote)
“The dictionary is the final authority on the meaning of words.”
It’s a reference book of convention, not a “final authority”; this isn’t some fucking Soviet Society Of Concrete Writing. If the dictionary were a “final authority” then, to paraphrase a certain mustachioed grave-robbing loafer, all metaphor, literature and history would be drowned in shallow puddles of piss-idiocy.
Look (and I’m really saying this for the benefit of others): “visceral” is the adjective derived from the noun forms “viscus” and “viscera” which refer to internal organs, the point being that intellect is invariably – no, organically (geddit?) – bound up with emotion.
To judge something as bad, one must feel that it is bad: otherwise the judgement is insincere. A colourful and inventive put-down simply illustrates this integrity of intellect and feeling.
Now see, I might have a masters in Cunning Linguistics, and plenty of titty-time on my clock to show for it, but that doesn’t mean you’re not the asshole here.
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:34 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Q: How do you know people have too much time on their hands in Taiwan?
A: because an article about train orgies deteriorates into a pissing contest on dictionary definitions.
…
March 3rd, 2012 at 11:12 am vin(Quote)
The issue, Mike, is not whether there is an organic relation between intellect and emotion; I agree that there is. I think most would agree that there is. And the dictionary does not deny that there is.
It does not follow at all from that, however, that visceral reactions are generally or usually compatible with intellect.
In fact, you’re the first person I’ve ever come across who says they are compatible. Perhaps that’s because others, same as me, have been stupidly going by dictionary definitions.
So I guess it’s a good thing that you explained for the benefit of others. But please don’t think it didn’t clarify for me, too; because I do understand now: it’s you, not the dictionary that best tells the meaning of words.
And yes, I should have realized earlier, too, that your standards of morality and interpretations of issues are prima facie correct. Now that I understand these latter facts, of course it makes sense to me that invective be hurled.
And indeed invective does help clarify things: what else could someone who disagrees with the truth be but an asshole? I might have been forever asleep had you not labeled me that.
Which is to say thank you for your patience. It seems it’s part of asshole-nature to be slow, but that does not mean we can’t finally get the point.
Thank you for helping me see.
Pleae forgive me, though, if I fail yet again in the future to immediately be aware of the truth. And of course feel free to crack on me for any such future dimness I display and trust that I won’t say a contrary word — or any word, for that matter — in reply.
March 3rd, 2012 at 11:09 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Easy one Oz…
A: When a certain self-opinionated blogger writes his first fatuous response to the topic at hand.
March 4th, 2012 at 7:45 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
Of course, Oz doesn’t HAVE too much time on his hands because he’s so busy wandering around looking for interesting things while out and about in Taiwan, like a drifter on freight train, taking strange pics, writing blog entries, and generally finding more excuses for not joining the culture nor offering to marry a Taiwanese lady and give her a child with eyesight as good as his.
EGAD! It just hit me…
A Little OZ, Jr.????!!!
Now, THAT is a scary thought!!!!
ROFL!
March 4th, 2012 at 9:20 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
I’m assuming (hoping?) that this is tongue-in-cheek…
In the year or so that I’ve been reading Oz’s blog, I’ve learned more about Taiwanese culture and social norms than 13 years of schooling ever taught me.
I’m also assuming that the comment about Oz’s “strange” pics is a compliment to the photographer, and not an insult to his subjects.
I’ll probably never get to visit Taiwan (although I’ve visited several other Asian countries plus India, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc) so I personally find Ozsoapbox extremely informative about “how-the-other-half-lives” — as it were — in Taiwan.
March 5th, 2012 at 10:55 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@TaiwanTeacher
Well apart from not seeing marriage or a child as gifts to be given out… when the alternative is staying at home ignoring the country you live in – I say I come up pretty well experiencing things culture wise.
I’m no cultural beacon but it’s not like I’m going around with my eyes closed.
There’s more to life and culture than marriage and popping out kids.
March 5th, 2012 at 7:45 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
@Oz – Agreed. That’s why I waited until I was middle age before popping out a kid. I didn’t mean to spoil your fun in any way; just messin’ with ya. Keep up the good work, Mr. Eagle Eye!
March 5th, 2012 at 11:19 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Yep, I agree; marriage and kids should be kept at a distance from any particular focus in our lives. I can say without any doubt that many, many people should never have brought kids into the world.
Too many parents obviously have absolutely no ideas about bringing kids up as well-adjusted, educated, confident, socially-aware human beings.
I was married—and divorced nearly 30 years ago—and I’m still single now. We never had kids, and I can say truthfully that I’ve never once regretted that decision not to be a father.
Being childless meant that the world was our oyster—and at an age when we could harvest its pearls—of overseas travel and work, and self-education.
Small children would’ve inevitably been a liability to that end.
Although it doesn’t seem to deter the Asian migrants in Australia that seemingly produce enough kids to form family soccer teams LOL.
March 6th, 2012 at 12:02 am ausGeoff(Quote)
Further to the above—and I apologise for veering off-topic—but this may be of interest re juvenile crime:
The rate of assaults by juveniles [in Australia] has surged alarmingly across the nation.
The number of incidents increased by 67 per cent in 13 years, the Australian Institute of Criminology’s annual report shows.
General crime levels for children aged 10-14 rose 12 per cent in the most recently surveyed financial year of 2009-10.
The full article is here:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/more-kids-turning-violent/story-fn7x8me2-1226289867230
I’d be interested in knowing if juvenile crime rates are similar in Taiwan, or if the more traditional nuclear family and paternalistic(?) family values keep the kids’ rates down more than Western countries.
March 6th, 2012 at 10:33 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Nearly all kids live at home… and about as much trouble they get into is sitting around 7-11s in their “scooter clubs” late at night.
There are the gangster wannabes but they’re pretty much negligible day to day life wise. Everything’s pretty low-key here.
March 6th, 2012 at 11:37 am ausGeoff(Quote)
Uh…Oz… what’s a “scooter club”?
Do you mean like the Razor scooters, or yer actual 50cc petrol jobs?
March 6th, 2012 at 12:23 pm whatthehell(Quote)
Aus, I have been to Sri Lanka and a lot of SE Asian countries but I would have to say Taiwan is a great deal different to these. Infrastructure is good and it seems to be have an abundance of middle class.
If you scout around, you could get a return for about $700 aud and things are quite cheap once you’re here.
March 6th, 2012 at 12:25 pm whatthehell(Quote)
Oh and on crime, as people talk of the foreigners being a target of beatings etc, I’ve lived here for over a year and never experienced any type of violence.
Sure, I’ve had the odd gangster or whatever eye ball me to which I ignore. In comparison to Australia, I feel a lot safer in Taiwan than any night out in Aus.
March 6th, 2012 at 6:59 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@ausgeoff
In Taiwan it’s basically a bunch of teenagers with spiky orange hair who park their LED ridden Sym Fighter, Kymco Jet, Yamaha Cyxgnus or BWS 150cc scooters outside the nearest 7-11 and sit around sipping black tea.
That’s about as tough as it gets.
March 7th, 2012 at 9:34 am ausGeoff(Quote)
According to another blog I came across, you’ve been living in Taiwan too long if . . .
You stop conjugating verbs.
You see three people on a motorcycle and figure there’s room for two more.
You turn left from the right lane.
There are more things strapped to your motorcycle than you ever put in a car.
The main reason you stop at a 7-11 is to buy tea eggs.
You can distinguish Taiwanese from Hakka.
Taxi drivers are considered “good drivers.”
You stop and look both ways before driving through a red light.
You wear out your horn before your brakes.
You know which place has the best noodles and duck meat at 3:00 AM.
You own a karaoke machine.
Forks feel strange.
People don’t see you for months, and when they do, they don’t ask you where you’ve been.
You stare at other foreigners.
You become an expert on bug zappers: the best brands and where to get them.
You know which turn signal should be on when reversing the wrong way down a one-way street.
— I particularly love the last one. I’m still laughing.
March 21st, 2012 at 1:50 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Update: Prosecutors have indicted those involved. The organiser is up for a six-month jail sentence and his accomplices (male and female) are looking at two months each.
Those who participated walk free.
May 8th, 2012 at 7:17 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Update: Last friday the six accused fronted court and all six pleaded not guilty.
Tsai argues that because he made no money (he allegedly bought everyone dinner afterwards lol!) he’s not guilty.
Kinda like if I rob a bank but then give the money away… it’s all good.