Ergotech and LiveABC use Hitler to sell tablet PCs
Late last year 7-11 kicked up a furore in Taiwan when they teamed up with Taiwanese author Mark Lee to sell merchandise featuring a character based on Hitler.
Naturally the Israel embassy weren’t too impressed and after first claiming Hitler’s moustache was a tooth and then claiming that there was no resemblance of Lee’s character to Hitler… they pulled the products from sale.
Interestingly enough, Lee then went on to apologise after ‘carefully reviewing the history of Israel’.
Despite having read up on his history, less than a year later Hitler is once again being used to flog tech gear.
On the surface, the May 2012 edition of ‘BIZ Interactive Business Magazine’ looks like any other regular magazine…
Flip it open though and right there on page one is a giant full-sized ad from Ergotech featuring Hitler flogging some tablet PC promotion they have going:
Not as prominent as Hitler themed merchandise being sold in 7-11 stores… but still remarkably unmistakable.
Now whereas Ergotech’s blunder could be chalked up to be a local Taiwanese company who could pull the ‘we didn’t know any better’ excuse and go educate themselves on the most significant event of last century, BIZ Interactive Business Magazine however should know better.
Biz Interactive Business Magazine is published by LiveABC, who claim they are ‘an innovator in designing language-learning tools‘ with their publications ‘enhancing Taiwan’s international reputation as a centre of culture and learning’.
Just to put things entirely into context here, BIZ Interactive Business Magazine is an English learning magazine aimed at businesspeople looking to brush up on their English skills in a business environment.
How on Earth a full-sized ad featuring a Hitler lookalike cartoon character on page 1 got past the editors is then not only a complete mystery but painfully inexcusable. Especially when you’re also running around claiming Taiwan is an epicenter of cultural learning.
Interestingly enough, LiveABC cite the USA as one of their target markets. I understand that BIZ Interactive Magazine isn’t really aimed at English-speaking readers but I’m still kind of curious as to whether or not the magazine is on sale there. Forget about Taiwan’s tiny market, being caught out with Hitler ads in the US is a gigantic PR disaster just waiting to happen…
As for Ergotech, thankfully they don’t have Hitler plastered all over their website but I did find this Youtube video embedded on one of their product pages:
I don’t know how big Ergotech is here in Taiwan (the above video has been viewed over 2000 times without raising an eyebrow) but they seem to have no problems using Hitler to market their goods. Hell, they even seem entirely enthusiastic about it.
Meanwhile despite Mark Lee claiming he’s brushed up on his world history, apparently he still doesn’t get why using the image of Hitler to pimp goods is a bad idea.
One can only hope that a Taiwanese businessman doesn’t one day stick his foot into it abroad by referring to Hitler as that ‘cute funny guy’ should the opportunity present itself.
Then again, one would hope members of the Taiwanese business community would be educated enough to know beforehand who Hitler was in the first place and why it’s not really appropriate to use his likeness to market things.
I’ve contacted the Israel embassy in Taiwan for comment and will update here if I hear anything back. They weren’t too happy with 7-11 last year so it’ll be interesting to see when faced with the promotion of the same character whether or not they’re amused.
Dear Oz,
Thank you very much for informing us!
Frankly, we feel it’s very regretful that this kind of incident occurred again.
We approached the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding this case, and they contacted both Mr. Lee and Ergotech.
Both responded immediately and positively: Mr. Lee apologized for the contract of this case was signed before the 7-11 incident, when he wasn’t aware of the sensitivity.
He apologized that he couldn’t take action about it in this case. However he is modifying the character’s appearance for future use, and intends to show us his final version before he sent it out in the market.
We will also meet him personally to broaden his understanding and knowledge about the horrors of the Holocaust.
Ergotech representative, a manager, said they would pull down the advertisements on website, but unfortunately, they couldn’t get back the ones that were already printed and in the market.
They assured the MoFA official that they will not commit such a blunder in the future.
We’re still waiting to hear from the magazine – especially since you mention they were advised against running the ad. We’ll let you know.
We really appreciate your approaching us, making it possible to remove those terrible ads & products from the market. Thank you!
Best Regards,
Anna Shen
Media & Public Affairs Officer
Glad to see Mark Lee apologised and more importantly is going to modify the Hitler character. Hitler is pretty recognisable so I don’t see why, if he wants to market with the character, he can’t use a less than carbon copy of Hitler (keep the jacket (maybe minus the armband) but change the head etc.).
Although I suppose the identity might then be lost on the general Taiwanese the comic is aimed at but maybe not if they’re already familiar with it.
Ergotech are pulling the ads so good on them and it’s a bit disappointing to see LiveABC haven’t replied yet, considering they approved the ad for publication and claiming to propagate an image of ‘cultural learning’ for Taiwan.
May 1st, 2012 at 7:04 pm Olaf(Quote)
They should do a few more such ads, but with more “local” characters, I’m sure their “message” would be brought over much better. Right away I would suggest Yuan Shikai, Mao Zedong and Jiang Jieshi. Should be funny…
May 2nd, 2012 at 2:03 am James(Quote)
Oz as you know, I’m the editor with that mag and responsible for pretty much all the content. Unfortunately we don’t get to see the ads, except the ones the advertorial type, as I have to proof the copy (more like rewrite, actually).
The first I saw of this was when I opened the first run of mags that we do a week or so before they go on sale. By that time it is ‘too late’ which makes my final proof pretty pointless.
I was pretty stunned to see this when I opened the mag and made my feelings known to my team, who all went silent and just shrunk into their corners. Only one was prepared to even talk to me about it.
I went and saw the Bigbossman and told him exactly what I thought, making him aware that this had garnered considerable press both domestically and internationally (CNN ran it and we publish their EFL mag here, so not a very clever move) and that – regardless of any moral issues – I thought it showed stupendously poor judgement.
He looked concerned, thanked me and said he would look into it. Whether anyone will be admonished, I don’t know. I very much doubt it.
May 2nd, 2012 at 10:24 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Cheers for the clarification. I’m not sure if the Israel embassy will get back to me, I’ll update if they do.
May 3rd, 2012 at 12:46 am Nil(Quote)
Is this a troll? A big giant Nazi troll?
Is Mark Lee really responsible for all of this or did somebody else pull the trigger? Shouldn’t this whole thing be part of an advertising campaign? They must be some kind of analysis about how Taiwanese consumers would react, right?
Does this kind of thing happen in Japan? It seems they would be even more likely to have positive Nazi sentiments (since there’s so much undercurrent of “WW2 was America’s fault”).
Btw, has anyone ever pulled a standard Taiwanese history textbook to find out exactly what they teach about Hitler, the Nazis, and WWII?
For argument’s sake, how different is this from South Park or Danish cartoonists doing an episode with Mohammed?
May 3rd, 2012 at 1:05 am mike(Quote)
“For argument’s sake, how different is this from South Park or Danish cartoonists doing an episode with Mohammed?”
Fuck me, but someone’s been snorting a bit too much ignorance.
If you draw a cartoon of Hitler in Taiwan, you get a verbal telling off from the Israelis and maybe a look of embarassment from your higher-ups (exceptions like James aside). If you do it in Europe or the U.S., a lot of people are likely to express some sort of disapproval. Possibly containing words like “anti-semitic” and “cunt” not too far apart.
If however, you draw a cartoon of Mohammed, you’ll be lucky not to get your fucking head cut off.
How’s that for a difference “for argument’s sake”?
May 3rd, 2012 at 9:47 am Olaf(Quote)
…and then draw a cartoon of Mao Zedong and Chiang Kaishek and see how your life expectancy turns out…
Even Germans are now slowly starting to make fun of Hitler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzjEzM1BVg), but that’s making fun of Hitler, not using Hitler in an ad to promote a product, those are two very different things.
So go ahead and do the same ad with Mao and CKS, and the same people who may have laughed about the Hitler ad suddenly become rather agitated, because they have a slightly closer relation to those persons…
May 3rd, 2012 at 10:06 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Nil
South Park isn’t trying to sell me stuff, neither were the Danish cartoons.
I think there’s a distinct difference between using notorious historical figures to flog consumer goods and parodying them culturally in a cartoon.
On that note I guess I don’t have an objection to Mark Lee’s use of the Hitler character in the comic, but it’s when he starts merchandising and licensing out the character’s image for marketing campaigns that we venture out into ‘uh… that’s not right’ territory.
Oh and for arguments sake, when South Park parodied Mohammed (or rather the religious stigma of not being able to portray him visually) the creators received direct threats of violence.
Meanwhile here in Taiwan this time around I don’t think anyone is too particularly interested in Hitler being used to flog tablet PCs as I haven’t heard a peep back from the Israel embassy yet (not even a ‘hey thanks for contacting us’ reply).
I’m assuming if Biz Interactive is circulated in the US that they didn’t publish the same ad as surely someone by now would have found it… or maybe not.
Either way, at least there’s a record of it happening so it doesn’t just disappear into the ether.
May 3rd, 2012 at 10:59 am Nil(Quote)
Good to know you all draw a line at free speech for comedy but not for advertising. What exactly is your line then?
So if they just made the ad humorous, would you still be as hurt? Your conception of free speech must clearly account for both of these cases.
The violence of the Muslim world’s reaction to the Mohammed cartoon is specious: they were offended and not all reacted violently. Aren’t you all implying that Westerners should be offended by the Hitler ad? Or does the quality of the “offense” matter (Westerners being offended is different from Muslims being offended)?
I’m really not trying to be a dick, but I would just like some consistency on everyone’s moral outrage.
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:04 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Wait what… free speech? Who said anything about free speech?
I think the use of Hitler to market goods is shameful and companies/individuals who do so should be called out on it. I never said it should be made illegal.
Personally I don’t think there’s anything humorous about using Hitler to sell tablet PCs, but that’s just me.
Yeah but some did, what the rest did doesn’t negate that. Sorry what was your point again?
Claiming that some Muslims didn’t threaten violence therefore the actions of those that did don’t count is just as silly as claiming those that did threaten violence reflect the same attitudes as those that didn’t. Neither are applicable.
The focus here is solely on those that did threaten violence, for which there is no justification.
Nope.
Yawn. Transparent much?
…really?
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:41 am Olaf(Quote)
This does not really apply to other countries, but as a German let me explain the situation there. Our “constitution” (if you can call the Grundgesetz that way) forbids the glorification of Nazi-related things, including symbols, persons, songs etc.
That means people will be arrested and tried if they show the Nazi salute in public, carry the swastica etc. In documentaries or films it is OK to show the uniforms, symbols etc, but for example in films people will try to avoid having actors sing Nazi songs. Parodies are also OK, since they do not glorify Nazis. FPS games are a problem and usually swasticas for example are censored in game editions for the German market.
That’s the line drawn in Germany: Nothing that could glorify Nazis.
May 3rd, 2012 at 1:44 pm mike(Quote)
For god’s sake…
“Good to know you all draw a line at free speech for comedy but not for advertising.”
Except that in this instance, you don’t “know” anything. Look: you must not guage the right to free speech with reference to common approval or disapproval. The right to free speech is preserved if, and only if, the State does not prohibit any particular speech act – including, I might add, the glorification of Nazis or other forms of “hate speech”.
The key point is not whether a given speech act is commonly liked or disliked, but whether the violence of the State is permitted to punish those who propagate that speech act.
The importance of free speech is not simply confined to allowing people to say controversial things, but extends far beyond that; freedom of speech allows us to identify who the “bad” people are (e.g. neo-Nazis*), which identification becomes more difficult when the very expression of their Neo-Nazism is forbidden; and of even greater significance is the fact that freedom of speech allows for the application of civic forms of pressure such as the public expression of disapproval through criticism.
With certain speech acts forbidden, the public becomes less used to exercising civic responsibility, and can thus be conditioned to have their moral outrage exercised vicariously through the government. And then the game will be over, for the people will have outsourced their individual souls to the hive.
“The violence of the Muslim world’s reaction to the Mohammed cartoon is specious: they were offended and not all reacted violently.”
Wot?
You yourself use the phrase “Muslim world’s reaction” for crying out loud. Look: of course not all Muslims are the same but the point is there is an appreciable difference in the likely outcome of offending German people with Nazi cartoons and offending Muslim people with Mohammed cartoons.
Olaf isn’t about to go and break down Mark Lee’s door with an axe while screaming revenge, is he? He’s a German – he’s probably got work to do.
“Aren’t you all implying that Westerners should be offended by the Hitler ad?”
No. In the first place, offence depends on valuation – which is always, everywhere, a cognitive action of individuals. Not only do people differ in what they find offensive, but they differ in the significance with which they rank offensive speech acts.
The casual use of Nazi cartoons to sell PC tablets offends me, but not very much simply because I have more important things to worry about.
“Or does the quality of the “offense” matter (Westerners being offended is different from Muslims being offended)?”
It’s not the offense that matters but the response. If you go around with a Nazi swasticka on your forehead, I might call you a “stupid cunt” but that’s about it. What I won’t be doing is bashing down your bathroom door with a fucking axe.
*Never the neo-Commies though for some reason. People who walk around wearing this sort of thing are utter scum in my book – just as bad as wearing neo-Nazi gear. Yet they get a free pass.
May 3rd, 2012 at 4:13 pm James(Quote)
Gaaah – just lost a lengthy post. Here goes, again:
@Olaf: Yeah, I’ve tried to explain this to friends here. I once saw a lad on a train platform wearing a bright red T-shirt with swastikas on the arms and back and the Fuhrer’s scowling countenance staring out from the front.
Apprehending my almost equally stern visage, his gf informed him ‘”I don’t think the foreigner likes your T-shirt”. They then sidled sheepishly down the platform and retreated behind a pillar until the train came.
When I met with justifications and protests of ignorance from my missus and some Taiwanese friends, I had to explain that you could go down for walking around wearing that in Germany. In parts of NW London, where I grew up, your whimpered pleas of ignorance would likely fall on deaf ears as you copped a good kicking.
@Nil: Leaving aside any ethical quandary, the pretty obvious difference is that South Park is satire, created by two intelligent men who have more than a rudimentary grasp of the subject matter they take on; whereas these cartoons are being used commercially in an environment where most people are clueless about the historical baggage they bring with them.
I agree with Oz that, within certain contexts these usages are acceptable. But Lee and his supporters’ claims that he, too, was using the image satirically and meant no offence run into two problems:
i) As I’ve indicated, satire presupposes an populace with some degree of understanding about the subject
ii) Lee has continued, as Oz put it, to pimp his creation long after last years’ furor, having feigned contrition and promised to swot up on his history, in what has to be seen as cynical attempt to cash in once the spotlight was off and he had adjudged it safe to cash in again.
I don’t think you’re a ‘dick’ and I do think you raise some interesting points. You question about what is on the syllabus at schools in Taiwan is a good one. Having taught high school here, I would say that, by senior high, most students will know Xi-te-le (希特勒) – gotta love the transliteration which sounds, most fittingly, like Shitler.
The good students know facts and dates, like when he came to power, and that he was responsible for serious atrocities, but there doesn’t seem to be the wincing aversion that one would find in the West when his name is invoked.
I’ve asked friends what/how much they actually learn and never got a satisfactory answer, so it’s definitely one worth exploring. It seems to me that those who do know the European war in detail are from more worldly, well-rounded upbringings, supported by parents who encouraged curiosity.
Some, I know, learnt this stuff off their own backs as many of my Western pals did and continue to do (it always sparks incredulity when one demonstrates a good knowledge of local history).
With young people, it’s insularity, a lack of curiosity, the belief that this has nothing to do with us and the way we live our lives (while learning every schism in every Dynasty for the last 3,000 years somehow does); with older people in Taiwan, it seems they often know a bit more but interpret it in a way that still seems pretty ignorant to us.
This is the best piece I have read on the numerous Nazi faux pas and gaffes over the years: http://www.atimes.com/china/CG19Ad04.html
The anecdote of the German trade office official who says taxi drivers praise Hitler when he gets in their cabs is not isolated. I met have two separate individuals who told me almost word-for-word the same stories:
“I sat down in the cab, the driver asked ‘where are you from?’ I replied ‘Germany’, he exclaimed ‘Hitler!’ like that’s the first thing you would say to a German on meeting them” (cue Basil Fawlty refernces …) When they asked why the driver was bringing Hitler up said that is wasn’t cool, the driver just said he was a great man, a strong leader. Maybe he did the odd bad thing but he instilled discipline.
I can remember most of the incidents referred to in that piece, though I had forgotten about the DPP vid (the claim that foreigners got the wrong end of the stick because they don’t speak Mandarin is genius!). There are some that are not mentioned in the article, like a comic ‘textbook’ (also used in Pakistan) entitled “Hitler: A Role Model For Children” (it depicts the struggling painter Adolph and his rise to power against all the odds, conveniently finish the charming little didactic there).
The piece was also written before the shameful KMT posters of 04 casting Chen as Hitler (how does the ignorance pleas stack up there? In my first couple of years in Taiwan I remember two incidents of legislators branding the opposition ‘Hitler’ for some completely disproportionate reason).
Anyway, I think I had some other point here but I appear to have rambled myself into a stupor …
Ah, yeah, @Olaf: The problem is – they do use Chiang and Mao in ads or as Kitsch figures! In my experience here, even some staunch greens don’t think it’s a big del to make Chiang into cuddly avuncular figure of fun.
I mean, look how conflicted and complex Taiwan regarding these issues: CKS Memorial hall … I’ve found that, if you criticize as a foreigner, even people whose natural inclination is antipathy toward the Chiangs can get defensive; it’s almost as if “OK, he was a dictator but he was our dictator and we don’t really need your tuppence worth.”
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:34 pm Nil(Quote)
Thank you James for a very interesting reply.
At Oz and Everybody Else: step inside the shoes of a rational Muslim for a second and tell me how things look. Can’t all the arguments or “shamefulness” (as Oz puts it) you feel be applied by them to the cartoons of Mohammed? I just want a straight forward answer on how you distinguish these two cases.
What is it you want Taiwanese to do exactly? Stop using Hitler likeness? If so, then isn’t that what Muslims want? I’m confused why you all are so offended (even the hardened-to-the-bone Mike admitted some offense).
Oz, I greatly appreciate you posting this stuff. It shows cultural difference. I think it’s futile to try and educate Taiwanese or Chinese about why Hitler probably isn’t a good idea for an advertising campaign (just like trying to educate them about contract rights).
Trying to “teach” them your values is like putting lipstick on a pig. I think it’s better to just be aware of these differences. Personally, I don’t think there is much hope for a “global village” or multicultural future.
Btw, Mike’s kind has had a good 50 years of pushing their points (the *sips on gin* the US government and I’m sure many other Western governments–talking down to Asian cultures). What has that gotten us? Judging by this whole episode, not very much. Save your breath.
Plus, this is an English blog and nobody of any importance will be reading it. I want one of you to master Chinese and get on TV and debate these points in Chinese. Why is it there are no versions of Mike on TV? In America, there are plenty of immigrants (mostly with broken English) who spend the majority of their time denouncing the United States and everything she does.
I know most Taiwanese can’t handle this kind of direct criticism, but it makes me wonder if all the great Chinese-as-a-second language speakers are diplomatic by nature and just aren’t interested in trying to start a dialogue on these issues.
I’m not Anti-American, but these immigrants really helped me understand that my American-lenses were pretty foggy, there’s a whole other way to view the world (spend some time with Indians and you will catch up on all the stories the BBC and CNN “missed”).
Btw, I’m super tired and just scanned all the previous responses so my apologies if I missed something.
Good luck with your Chinese studies everybody!
May 4th, 2012 at 12:24 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
One is related to religious beliefs (I’m not religious so I don’t care about silly rules over who you can and can’t represent visually) and one is related to a guy who masterminded the holocaust. Big difference there.
Not withstanding the fact that the Muhammed example was parody and the Hitler example is marketing.
Stop using it inappropriately. If you want to make fun of Hitler in a comic, yeah by all means do it. If you want to market shit, don’t use Hitler or Hitler inspired characters to do so. It’s not cool.
The Muhammed ban goes for all visual representations and is nonsensical in that it exists entirely irrespective of free speech laws and what have you.
As part of the greater goal to record life in Taiwan I document instances like this and share them with anyone interested in reading. Hopefully over the years it’ll be a sizeable resource for people and of use.
I know as well as anyone else that Joe Random flogging Hitler tshirts at a nightmarket isn’t going to be influenced by an English language blog or care. But that’s not why I do what I do.
As my Chinese gets better and I have to rely less on third party translations to digest what goes on here, I’ll become sharper in how I write myself. I hope over time I can counter the all too rosy English-language based image Taiwan has and provide people with a more down-to-Earth picture of this little island.
That of course doesn’t mean non-stop criticism and hopefully people come away with more than just that when they visit OzSoapbox.
Regarding the Chinese language thing, I know I’m stereotyping but most people who are here long enough tend to be either family men, old businessmen or bums who’ve made a decent enough life for themselves here and can’t be bothered with it.
You have to have a genuine interest in current events and what not if you want to be engaging in this kind of stuff on a mainstream level. Most of the jobs here don’t encourage that (ie. there’s no hard journalism jobs for bilingual speakers, it’s merely translation work).
OzSoapbox has always been somewhat of an opinion column for myself so we’ll see where it goes as over time my Chinese improves.
May 4th, 2012 at 12:28 am ausGeoff(Quote)
A bit OT… just trying to suggest an apposite alternative scenario.
How does the German population regard the Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot who was responsible for the execution of roughly 3,000,000 Cambodians?
What would happen if I were to fly the (yellow hammer and sickle on red ground) flag of the Khmer Communist Party from my house in Berlin or Hamburg, or even Wildflecken?
Would that be regarded with the same apparent equanimity that the Taiwanese or Chinese regard the swastika and/or or Hitler?
May 4th, 2012 at 12:31 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
…using Hitler to market PC gear isn’t the same as flying a Khmer Rouge flag.
I can’t speak for everyone but persay I don’t have a problem with the Hitler character from ‘I’m Mark’. It’s using this character to market stuff that irks me.
You don’t think the German press would eat you alive if you used Pol Pot’s image to market goods? Wait till the international media caught wind of it.
(that’s part of the problem here in Taiwan, a complete lack of international media exposure. Everyone’s too busy watching Youtube videos on the nightly news).
May 4th, 2012 at 12:57 am ausGeoff(Quote)
And I for one am glad that you take the time to document this sort of diverse stuff Oz…
I think a few people here need to understand that this is your blog first and foremost, and as such you’re free to publish whatever strikes you at the time as being of interest, be it good, bad or indifferent.
I also think those folks need to understand too that these are simply your observations of what you happen to see around you each day, and not some sort of grandiose political statement or bible of the times.
The frequent captiousness is often catalysed by nothing more than semantics, and can get tiresome at times.
May 4th, 2012 at 1:08 am mike(Quote)
“Btw, Mike’s kind has had a good 50 years of pushing their points…”
My kind? Name those points.
“Why is it there are no versions of Mike on TV?”
Actually I was on TV briefly on the day of the Taiwan election back in January.
However, even if my Chinese was like polished marble, it would take a brave producer to put me on a debate program about say, the recent land expropriation cases.
May 4th, 2012 at 1:29 am ausGeoff(Quote)
I guess like a couple of the other guys here, I’m having a problem understanding this fine distinction…
The adoption of the Hitler image is—at the end of the day—making money for both these users, Ergotech and cartoonist Mark Lee.
Lee’s blog has allegedly had 24,500 visits today, which is possibly more than the average daily pro-rata circulation of “Biz” magazine?
Exposure?
May 4th, 2012 at 10:14 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@ausgeoff
I guess respect artistic license when it comes to comedy but draw the line at marketing. I’ve always maintained that “anything goes” when it comes to comedy but taking a Hitler character and selling PC gear breaks the 4th wall of the comic in my opinion.
Using the other characters is fine, it’s just that particular character that I draw the line at. Mind you, I don’t think it should be illegal to use it, but when Mark Lee does license it out he should definitely be called out on it. Especially when he’s previously apologised after brushing up on world history.
May 4th, 2012 at 10:27 am Olaf(Quote)
I am not the German population, just one of them, but for what it’s worth: He’s a mass murderer.
Not many people would probably know what flag that is, but when they do you might not find your environment very pleasant…
No. The way I see it, the first problem is that people here seriously lack world history education. They may know every Chinese emperor (Don’t ask me about all the German kings…), but then they only vaguely heard that there was something called a “world war”. Or were there even two? Can’t tell…
The second problem is the indoctrinated admiration for anyone who establishes or holds together a large empire. The time of the three kingdoms was terrible, because the country was split. Qinshihuang may have killed a lot of people, but he created the Chinese empire. And Hitler (briely) ruled over a large empire (That thanks to him Germany became smaller than before is easily overseen.), so what are a few million lives?
At least in my opinion that’s why you see people here walking around with swasticas or putting Hitler into ads.
May 4th, 2012 at 2:17 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Updated with a reply from the Israeli Embassy.
They got the Ministry of Foreign Affairs involved and apart from LiveABC not responding, seems to be an acceptable solution allround.
Perhaps James can followup LiveABC’s response (or clarify why they didn’t reply or haven’t replied yet?)
May 4th, 2012 at 7:25 pm James(Quote)
Has MOFA been onto LiveABC? If so, that’s great and lends the lie to Nil’s opinion that trying to make oneself heard on issues like this is to butt one’s head against a brick wall.
I was having a related convo with a colleague today and in my fulltime English teaching days I probably interacted with easily 1,000 youngsters. In many cases I would – and still do – point out things that they might not have ever thought about, such as how atnding in the street pointing an repeating ‘Waiguoren’ is neither friendly nor polite.
I know many other teachers who did the same. We were often met with the response from other laowai that we were wasting our time. I disagree. Let’s say each of my students tells a couple of maets what teacher said in class. With just a handful of teachers, you could be heard by 15,000 people.
I’m not talking about smug, sententious cultural moralising but gently letting kids know how s person might feel when being pointed at and talked about on the street or on the train. For those of us with children growing up here, and longterm attachments, doing whatever one can to open up people to a wider, less insular and ignorant world view cannot be wrong.
Oz – I don’t know what the state of play is – I’m sure no one would tell me but I hope some rebukes are handed down though, tbh, the CEO here must have been ionvolved at some level as he sees/OKs pretty much everything so I doubt there will be any ostentatious assumption of culpability.
I don’t really want to go in to the manager’s office and ask as it will necessarily involve some face issues if I’m seen to know what’s going on behind the scenes. I will keep you posted with anything I do get wind of.
I’m glad at the turn this has taken. Well done for putting it out there.
May 4th, 2012 at 7:34 pm James(Quote)
This isn’t true. There might be any roving reporters but if you have something to say on a topical issue and can put together a reasonably cogent piece and well-written piece(not even that in some cases), you can get published in Taipei Times. Plenty of foreigners have been and do.
Unless you have the features job there, though, you’ll not really be able to make a living solely as journo for local publications.
May 4th, 2012 at 7:56 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Thanks Olaf for the clarification…
I’m guessing (because I don’t know) that the population of Taiwan (and China?) could suffer from the same historical myopia as far as the swastika and Hitler are concerned?
May 4th, 2012 at 8:06 pm James(Quote)
He meant Taiwan, Geoff.
Oh, and Mike, I have this strange feeling that the lad Nil might be mistaking your bosom-buddy Michael Turton, which would be most amusing! If not, I’m as in the dark as you as to the import of his remarks.
May 4th, 2012 at 8:10 pm James(Quote)
BTW, the chained, indentured office employee to the side of the Fuhrer adds a rather unsavoury aspect to the whole, eh?
May 4th, 2012 at 9:12 pm mike(Quote)
“…if you have something to say on a topical issue and can put together a reasonably cogent piece and well-written piece(not even that in some cases), you can get published in Taipei Times.”
Why aye, James, whatever you say bonny lad.
May 4th, 2012 at 9:42 pm mike(Quote)
“Oh, and Mike, I have this strange feeling that the lad Nil might be mistaking your bosom-buddy Michael Turton, which would be most amusing!”
Who knows… there is an irony there though: Turton’s blog is by far an away the best in Taiwan, hands down – and I’ve slapped his detractors around with this point previously. I actually agree with him on quite a few things (same with Oz), but I’m banned from commenting because I will not let him get away with his commie bullshit.
May 5th, 2012 at 9:33 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@James
When I said job naturally I meant enough work to make a career out of it. I don’t consider random opinion pieces and ‘letters to the editor’ enough to count yourself a journalist.
May 6th, 2012 at 4:47 am James(Quote)
Dear me – I don’t go around blowing my own trumpet but you don’t know what you are talking about mate. I definitely wasn’t talking about letters to the ed and I’ve had a lot more than a ‘few random’ pieces published here , in the UK and in your dear homeland.
Anyway, as one of my old profs (a well-respected journo) said: the minute you are paid for your work, you are a professional journalist.
Your blog is understandably popular – you post on things that spark conversation and debate. Mine isn’t: I post on what I want and write in the way I want, unrestrained by concerns about whether it will attract readers. It allows me to practise and hone my writing as craft, something that is very important to me.
Before disparaging the work of others as ‘random opinion pieces’ you might want to look at the amount of time and work they put into what they do.
I never commit finger to keyboard lightly when I engage in the creative process. It might not always be perfect, it might not be your cup of tea, but it certainly isn’t ‘random’. It’s something I take very seriously and that I care about deeply.
May 6th, 2012 at 4:53 am James(Quote)
@Mike: That’s big of you to say. I agree that MT’s blog is par excellence.
May 6th, 2012 at 1:48 pm mike(Quote)
“Before disparaging the work of others as ‘random opinion pieces’ you might want to look at the amount of time and work they put into what they do.”
Allow me to showboat: on good writing – quality presupposes the exercise of perishable skills, though to be fair, the time and work required for flair is something of an opaque bill.
That’ll be NT$200, please!
For “random” opinions, Oz has got the market cornered: what’s he going to be scribbling about next week – 24 hour tortoise shops? Who knows… he himself probably doesn’t know.
May 6th, 2012 at 4:20 pm James(Quote)
Well quite. Nature-nurture arguments aside, no amount of said exercise is going to create talent in discipline.
Baboom, ching!
May 6th, 2012 at 8:06 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Uh… not sure what you mean by “perishable skill” Mike?
perishable [per-i-shuh-buhl] —adj; —n. subject to decay, ruin, or destruction; liable to rot or wither
Wouldn’t the skill of writing better be described as “transitory”?
Is it possible to describe an abstract concept as perishable? Or does the abstraction ultimately become corporeal? (And therefore attain the possibility of perishing?)
At any rate, wouldn’t all skills be perishable, whether it be writing, woodworking, winemaking, welding, waitressing, watchmaking, etc etc etc.
—Or am I way off track?
May 6th, 2012 at 8:43 pm mike(Quote)
ausGeoff,
Certain kinds of writing are not a perishable skill, e.g. text messages, post-it-notes… or blog comments maybe. Facebook and Twitter for instance are littered with short, a-grammatical scribbles that often draw heavily on vernacular – a social reflex in informal circumstances.
Other kinds of writing, such as in discursive essays or polemical op-eds, demand a facility of description that accommodates the need for clarity with the need for economy… without falling back into stupid cliches. Sometimes this may be difficult to do and requires both comprehension and imagination.
On the other hand, it also helps to be able to spell properly and know what things like “pergolas” are!
May 6th, 2012 at 11:00 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
I side with Oz on this one. It was a callous, deliberate and insensitive attempt to garner “free advertising” by publishing something designed to infuriate people. There’s a saying, “Even bad press is still good for business, if one responds to it correctly.”
I.e., “Hey, Mate, I didn’t mean to stuff my jackboot down your throat. I must have tripped. Apologies for that. Perhaps you would like to see something else from our New Spring Line of footwear? I can make you a good deal…”
May 6th, 2012 at 11:04 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
And as it’s turned out, Mark Lee’s pseudo-Hitler characterisation has yet to reach its “use by” date!
I suppose Lee’s image could be seen as a visual cliché? That is, mindless, rash, done to death already, and bound to trigger often inappropriate but predictable social responses.
Whereas (say) an image of Pol Pot doesn’t create anything like the knee-jerk reactions that an image of Hitler or a swastika inevitably induces. And yet it’s believed by some that Pol Pot may have been responsible for the genocide of up to eight million Cambodians (although that figure will never be confirmed one way or the other now).
I have to ask why the world is so consistently outraged by Hitler, Naziism, and the Holocaust of 70 years ago and yet seems never to regard Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in the same way—from a “mere” 30 years ago.
One can only assume (yeah… I know!) that Mark Lee chose Hitler for very specific, and unashamedly dubious reasons—rather than Pol Pot.
And feel free to call me a cynic, but does this discongruity have any connection to the fact that the per capita GDP of Israel is $32,000 whilst that of Cambodia is only $2,500?
Or that the ethnoreligious Jews are far, far more vociferous and impassioned than the Buddhist Cambodians? The Jews are always talking about “persecution” and “atonement”, whereas the Buddhists seek one universal process of karmic causality which presides over all evils—and their cure.
May 6th, 2012 at 11:07 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
I’m not quite sure that the Scientologists would agree with this…
May 7th, 2012 at 12:21 am James(Quote)
I think you’ve answered your own question there.
No. If we’re going to go down the world jewry line, I would think disproportionate influence is more to the point, though it’s still often an excuse for the standard antisemite line.
Communicability and incentive, in most cases, is what’s at play. Most people don’t know the names, faces, mantras or symbols of the likes of Savak, the Securitate or even ad hoc killing-machines like the Interahamwe.
If they were as ubiquitous, Suharto’s face would be as anathema. Of course we who waffle forth here are ‘Westerners’ and inundated with certain images of indisputable wickedness.
But this last should give you pause: Rwanda’s GDP was, adjusting, surely a good chunk down from even Armenia’s during the Meds Yeghern. A GDP-related explanation is cobblers. The accessibility of information and the self-interest of the parties disseminating it dictates what the average joe knows.
If Leopold’s Congo genocide were to occur now – whatever the evasions from the top – the images would be in the public consciousness.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:01 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Regarding the random comment, I meant sporadically as opposed to a regular paying gig – not the content itself. Meanwhile anyone who thinks regular journalism jobs in Taiwan are abundant for non-bilinguals is kidding themselves.
@James
Wow… that’s pretty low coming from a fellow blogger. I’m not interested in linguistic pissing games so I’ll leave it at that.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:15 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@ausgeoff
I know it’s tempting to take the ‘a jewish life is worth more than a Cambodian life’ angle, but I personally think it’s far more simple than that.
Look at how many countries and people were involved in WW2 and then look at Cambodia.
Same deal with Africa, attrocities going on left right and centre but we don’t care because the exposure is limited (just the way they like it).
May 7th, 2012 at 12:34 pm James(Quote)
That’s what freelance is! When I have something published, that I invested hours of research, interview time and writing work into, it’s hardly random. From the initial story pitch (if you’ve ever done it you’ll know how deflating it can be to get just one response from 20 pitches)to the final draft, it’s a tough job.
I don’t recall anyone saying they were. I’m curious as to how informed your opinion is on this issue, though. How many English-language publications/Web sites do you think there are in Taiwan? I doubt you have any idea and have never come across half of them (oh, and please don’t respond with ‘Well, they can’t be up to much if I don’t know them’, which is beside the point).
I really haven’t the foggiest what you’re on about here. If anyone was being snidey it was you. In fact, I assiduously avoided calling you out on any failings, despite the fact that you had the temerity to pontificate on who is worthy of the epithet journalist.
What I wrote was a statement of how I feel about writing – something, alas, I have hardly any time for at the mo (at least not the creative variety). I’m not sure exactly what you found ‘low’ about that.
What on earth are you talking about? How did what I wrote even tangentially touch on linguistics? Bewildering …
May 7th, 2012 at 12:57 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Yeah so my point was these jobs are far and few between – which you confirm yourself above. How many non-bilinguals are living in Taiwan without a marriage visa and work as journos?
However many there are I still think it’s a pretty insignificant number.
Not enough to come to Taiwan and hope to land a job there as a non bilingual speaker. And remember, we’re differentiating between bilinguals here, seeing as there’s no language requirement to published in the TT (which the comment fromy you that started this entire tangent).
I still maintain getting published in TT every few months isn’t a job, journalism or otherwise. That was my original point.
In any case, working in the industry you’re obviously more passionate about this than I am so I’ll move on (starting to get bored).
Evidently you’ve got some idea.
Anyway, best of luck with the “writing” and I guess I’ll go back to doing whatever it is I do. I don’t have the luxury of time to discuss whether or not the countless hours of effort that goes into OSB is passionate, only written to attract readers with little to no thought put into the content itself, not written how I want, in the way I want or cared about deeply nor taken seriously.
All I can do is continue writing and putting myself out there doing the hard yards. Apologies in advance if you feel this is beneath you and somehow damages the sphere of credibility and love of writing that only sites such as your own embody.
Now kindly and with all due respect, fuck off.
May 7th, 2012 at 1:02 pm James(Quote)
nice.
May 7th, 2012 at 1:08 pm James(Quote)
It’s quite something the way you’ve managed to turn this all on it’s head and paint me as the one who started looking down on people.
I’ve refrained from abuse … your mind-boggling obtuseness on the MRT post nearly drew it out of me. Telling people to fuck off online. Rather lame isn’t it?
What’s the marriage visa stipulation about? Really, not being sarky, I don’t get it.
May 7th, 2012 at 1:15 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Hey I didn’t do anything, you wrote what you wrote – at least own it.
You’re running around the internet telling other blog owners that only you know what real writing is… on what planet were you expecting a favourable response?
You yourself claim you have no time to write, I run two blogs and work. Stop for a second and think about the astronomical time and effort put into this to ensure these two sites are updated with fresh (and hopefully interesting) content.
Then have a think about why I do what I do and go over your own condescending comments again.
Nothing personal, but on that single point alone I’ll reiterate: ‘fuck off’.
Personally I classify marriage visa people JFRC or whatever the acronym is as a different kettle of fish. They have the luxury of sitting around doing nothing and just mooching if they want. Also there’s no ARC requirement so more doors are opened.
May 7th, 2012 at 2:10 pm James(Quote)
I was doing nothing of the sort. I was responding to your comments about ‘real’ journalism by declaring my passion for the act of writing.
If there was an acerbic edge to it, it was because I resented your implications and felt they were unfair if (and I’ll admit I don’t know this) you haven’t yourself cold pitched and submitted work to the scrutiny of a third-party for publication, rather than self-publishing.
Inherent in that was no slight on what you do, just the observation that it’s very easy to sneer at ‘fake’ journos. That’s why I responded with a defence of struggling writers and why your
claim is not true. I never ‘start’ tit-for-tats over language or writing, unless someone goes there first. If you’re saying you weren’t, then I’ll have to take your word for that but it definitely panged of sneering.
Meanwhile:
I can see how much work it must be as it’d so well put together. I love it visually and the functionality is fantastic. I wish I had more of a clue about the backened stuff, to be sure.
That said, once again, you have no idea. None whatsoever. I work three jobs (actually five or six if we count the separate companies I’m currently freelance writing/editing for), leaving the house at 7:30am every day and getting back at past 10pm three nights a week (11pm on Tuesday).
The only evening I have off is Thursday. I also work Saturdays and sometimes Sundays (I turned it down this week as deadlines are looming on the freelance and I’m way behind). I barely see my kids at the moment.
Your “if the want” proviso notwithstanding, this is a ridiculous comment:
Who on earth is here on a marriage ARC just to loaf? Pretty much everyone I know who has one is supporting a family sometimes, as in my case, single-handedly. And I’m still fucking brassick!
May 7th, 2012 at 2:13 pm James(Quote)
Oh, I’ve just heard that the Ad dept was contacted by MOFA sent a link to your site. Apparently they’ve been told it was not a good judgement call.
There have been murmurings of Ergotech dropping the ad. We’re also hoping the eds will get to screen this kind of stuff in future.
May 7th, 2012 at 2:31 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
For what it’s worth yes I have cold pitched and have also been published. But that’s neither here nor there.
My point was that getting published occasionally (or randomly as I originally put it) in the TT hardly makes you a journalist. I’m talking down on people who do it or discouraging it, it just is what it is. Much the less make the argument that it constitutes a representation of employment opportunities for non bi-linguals.
Kind of like how me cycling around Taiwan doesn’t make me a professional cyclist, no matter how many thousands of kms I put in. Again, no problem with that or resentment/looking down on professional cyclists. It was it is.
Likewise I don’t get defensive for no reason. As you know you need a stupidly thick skin to publish anything on the internet.
Well I wasn’t talking about your work schedule and again, am not interested in a competition. I simply said I’d have thought someone with no time to write would all the more appreciate the work and effort someone puts in who does.
You’d be surprised. There’s a whole bunch of lazy out there.
Sounds like the message has now gotten through to all parties involved. Or at least we can hope.
May 7th, 2012 at 2:37 pm Olaf(Quote)
One good thing about having one’s own site is that one (and others) can run as far and long off topic as one wishes…
May 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm James(Quote)
Strawmen again, mate. No one was making that argument. I made it perfectly clear from the offset that, unless you have the feature writer job at TT, then – no – you’ll have a tough time supporting yourself as journalist, in the sense of reporter/writer.
There are probably more jobs than you imagine, though, many of which don’t require proficiency in Mandarin: Subs and copyeditors with various mags, news agencies and gov. depts.
No, it’s not like that. If someone was paying you to cycle, then – yes – you could call yourself professional. Seriously, it’s an old line from the trade: publish and be damn – er, no, that’s not the one: publish and you’re a professional.
Sigh, I knew that was coming … 好啦！
May 7th, 2012 at 3:05 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
So it’s not viable. We agree! Whoopee, moving on!
Honestly if you can’t support yourself doing it then you can claim to be whatever you want, it really doesn’t matter and personally I’m not fussed.
Let’s not kid ourselves, as far as not being bilingual goes – these are mostly just proof reading jobs that are repetitive and extremely limited in scope.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:09 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
You two actually consider yourselves to be journalists??? Ummm..
Beg your pardon, I should have been more to the point with that. Permit me to clarify…
You actually consider yourselves to be “journos”???
Hoo boy! This is rich material for a comedic routine. Andy Rooney will be laughing in his grave. Thanks.
“Have you ever noticed that…”
May 7th, 2012 at 4:26 pm James(Quote)
They’re not. Sorry Oz but if you do know about what you’re talking about here, then you’re doing a good job of hiding it.
TT subs positions may be repetitive but as with the subs at the paper I was at, they are more than just copyeditors (which is how the positions are always advertised) and reponsible for putting the whole page together.
In terms of job satisfaction, my time at the now defunct (go figure) Taiwan News was the best of my life. I had almost complete editorial control for the content of page, commissioned copy from reporters and contributed my own; interviewed people, attended events and press conferences; sourced articles and photos from a variety of wires and syndicated services, and laid out the basics of my pages.
It was just the pay and the anti-social hours that did for me. My subsequent job for a gov. agency, while not strictly journalism, involved a lot more than just proof reading.
A couple of other things while they occur to me: 1) Most of the people I’ve worked with in my non-teaching roles have not been married or had APRC.
2) I’ve can’t think of anyone I know who has those cards (certainly not the marriage), who I would call ‘lazy’. It’s hardly like sponging off the state is an option here and not many women are going to let hubbie lig around the house with no readies coming in. I don’t know too many Taiwan yuefus who are going to support bone-idle sons-in-law, either.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm James(Quote)
Actually, Oz is pretty clearly saying that he doesn’t so that shot was pretty wide of the mark. I do (though I do question it) in the sense that I have a modest body of work published across several continents, some of which I think is quite good.
If supporting oneself solely through such means is the defining criterion, then no, I’m not. But I have plenty of good friends who can’t support themselves solely through writing but who are undoubtedly journalists.
One of them contributes regular to New Statesman and other international publications and is about to put out a semnianl work on Iran. The news networks he has appeared on seem to have no problem calling him a writer and journalist.
Aside form that, Taiwan Teacher, you strike me as a bit of a pranny and, if we’re assessing comic crdentials here, about as funny as bowel cancer.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:45 pm James(Quote)
Gad. Apologies for litany of typos.
Out of interest, which of my publihed articles have you read? What’s that?
Ah.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:13 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
My apologies to you James. You remain every bit the professional in your writing.
I’m still cracking up at the opening line of Oz’s article,
“Late last year 7-11 kicked up a furore in Taiwan…”
Is that a typo? Did he really mean:
“Late last year 7-11 kicked up a fuehrer in Taiwan…”
???
May 8th, 2012 at 10:33 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@James
Are you bilingual? Cause you ain’t doing none of the above if you’re not. You’re sitting in a dingy cubicle somewhere proof reading other people’s work.
Regarding the lazy family guys, they tend to be lurking outside of the cities. At least that’s where I’ve run into them on the odd occasion.
May 8th, 2012 at 12:17 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
Just got news from the US that my uncle, the eldest male in our family, passed away from bowel cancer yesterday. Hence the timing of your personal jab is truly unappreciated.
Then again, what better can one expect from a pompous snipe such as yourself?
I was being civil.
May 8th, 2012 at 1:07 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry to hear about this TT…
As survivor of cancer myself, I inevitably find jokes about cancer per se to be in poor taste—to say the least.
I know that bowel cancer is one of the most distressing and socially disabling cancers there is, and something that should never be made light of for fear of offending others. I also accept that James didn’t necessarily mean any deliberate hurt, or to offend anyone, but nonetheless, it was a distasteful remark.
Incidentally James, colorectal cancer is diagnosed in about 3,620 Victorians, and over 12,500 Australians every year.
So it’s no laughing matter!
May 8th, 2012 at 2:16 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
In most sincere gratitude for the condolences you have offered, I am repeating your words IN FULL for all to read again. I most certainly DO NOT appreciate jokes in reference to cancer. Furthermore, my American wife died from Leukemia. ‘Nough said!
Yep… It appears that I have now become the “Da Ge” of the family. A sobering and slightly scary thought for anyone who really knows me, including myself.
May 8th, 2012 at 2:21 pm James(Quote)
Surely that was my point? Genuinely sorry for your loss TT and apologise for any offence caused – to you too Geoff. Incredibly unfortuinate timing for to open my trap, too, but I obviously wasn’t saying it was funny – quite the opposite. Again, sorry TT, but you certainly weren’t being civil.
I really don’t understand how you can hold forth on things (I now know for sure) you know nothing about. How do I know you don’t know? Because I am not lying. And because the paper I worked at no longer exists in print form. Your surreptitious transition from my past tense to the present continuous “you ain’t doing … you’re sitting” also misrepresents what I said.
You know where I work now (it’s not real journalism, granted, but I produce 90% of the copy and, while it may be dumbed-down pap, it’s all my own, original work) so I’m clearly not talking about what I’m “doing” right now.
Everyone did the same at Taiwan News, in terms of sourcing all the materials and laying out the pages. If they wanted to, which – strangely to me – not everyone did – they could contribute copy. I probably contributed about 20 pieces in my two years there.
I can give you all of their names of my colleagues there if you’d like. They all work in decent editorial positions now, where they certainly do a lot more than proof. One at TT commissions work as the features ed. Neither are bilingual. The guy who took over as head ed a while back has pretty much no Chinese.
At TT any of the subs (yes, I agree, monotonous but not just proofing and a damn sight better than ‘teaching’) can contribute copy if they. though they have a designated feat. ed and regular contributors on certain subjects, it’s not difficult to find your niche and scribble away.
My best mate here, who left late last year, put together a decent body of work on the Taiwanese contemporary art, for example.
I am far from bilingual but why would one need to be bilingual to interview American musicians? Why would one need to be bilingual to contribute English language copy on sport, travel, politics in an English lanuage paper?
I know it’s your soapbox and the pount is to let loose on whatever you see fit but when you clearly don’t know much about the subject, why can’t you just accept you might not have the full picture? You won’t find me insisting I know the score better than you on, say, some of your Oz-angled posts.
Finally, to go back to the last part of your comment:
So for non-bilinguals, translation is the option … right … makes perfect sense.
May 8th, 2012 at 2:37 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Translation was meant to read “proof-reading” in that last comment of mine, so I’ve fixed that up.
In any case…
Yeah I’m not going to entertain the notion that writing for english-language magazines constitutes journalism. You may see things differently but I’m not budging on that.
As for Taiwan News, it doesn’t exist anymore. Case in point these jobs aren’t even worth mentioning as viable.
And yes, there might be a handful of positions in one news paper in the whole of Taiwan where you can get by without Chinese… that’s great for the five people who hold down those jobs – but hardly an opportunity or job market worth mentioning.
Because at the end of the day there’s a good chance your mangaement prefer to talk to you in Chinese (ever sat in on a Chinese language office meeting? Bleugh!) and ultimately your readership is still going to primarily be Chinese speaking people (reading English).
Also between bilingual and not, the amount of stories you can cover speaking both languages and what you can write about increases exponentitally and is of far greater value to the publication.
I’m going to wrap up there because that’s how it is. You can go on about the abundance of these types of jobs or how large and vast the industry is I’m not really fussed.
It’s kind of like how you have English teachers running around thinking they’re university professors…
Anyone coming to Taiwan to do journalism in English is delusional if they think it’s a wide open market with plenty of opportunities.
As a side note, are your arguments always so polarising?
‘Your blog is shit because it’s not like my blog. I put effort into my writing and I care about what I write about and I don’t write for an audience and actually think about what I write and I’m keeping it real.’.
‘You’re obviously lying about journalism opportunities in Taiwan for non-Chinese speakers because the fact of the matter is I’m not lying…‘
Geez…
May 8th, 2012 at 3:10 pm James(Quote)
Plenty. I didn’t say I don’t speak Chinese.
What is with you? Seriously? It remind me of the episode of the Office where Tim is thinking out loud about the solution to a puzzle and says ‘Well, you can’t take the chicken first as that would leave him with the fox’
Gareth: Chicken with a fox?! Duh! Bloodbath!
Tim: Yes, Gareth, I know. I said you CAN’T …
You’ve painted me as the villain of the piece, continually turning what I say on it’s head or, when you can’t even be bothered with that, just brazenly misrepresenting me. Aside from those ridiculous end quotes that you’ve stuck in my mouth, let’s get this straight: I CLEARLY said I don’t consider my main job journalism and was only bringing it up to repeat that you know where I work, so why the present tense in reference to my time at TN?
Following your penchant for making up quotes and sticking them into people’s mouths (mine’s a good deal more accurate I should stress):
James: It’s not journalism but …
Oz: Journalism? Hahahaha! Get real mate.
JAmes: Yes, Oz. That’s what I was saying it’s NOT journalism ..
Oz: That two-bob EFL writing, journalism? Pull the other one …
etc etc ad infinitum
(NB – apply same formula to very first post on the issue, where I say, completely, unambiguously that one could not make a career solely from freelance journalism here. Look where that brought us.)
As you’ve said you’ll leave it at that, I shall respectfully bow out myself.
May 8th, 2012 at 4:41 pm Thoth Harris(Quote)
Oz to James Robert Baron: “As a side note, are your arguments always so polarising?”
Uh, Oz, always – and pompous, too. He thinks he’s King Baloney. He’s pulled the same number on my blog. No wonder you got a little contrarian with him. If anything, you had the patience of a saint.
May 8th, 2012 at 5:03 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Ah, so he’s one of those people. Fair enough then.
May 8th, 2012 at 6:39 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
Family huddle!!!
Here’s the game plan:
Let’s all go find some targets to attack in preference to attacking each other.
Now… Where ARE those 15 Taiwanese guys on a private MRT “pussywagon” who forgot to call and invite me and my friends… Argh!
May 8th, 2012 at 9:32 pm mike(Quote)
Actually, I thought James had the better of the exchange.
May 8th, 2012 at 10:50 pm TaiwanTeacher(Quote)
I cast my vote the same as yours. But, I’ll give Oz credit for his tenacity. ;^)
June 19th, 2012 at 9:09 pm FOARP(Quote)
A bit late here, but JB is an old mucker of mine so I’ll say my piece:
1) He’s absolutely correct. You don’t have to be bilingual to get a job in the English-language press in Taiwan. You only have to be able to speak and write English.
I’m business-level in Chinese (by which I mean, I attend meetings, I give presentations, but my Chinese will almost certainly non-native) but none of the editing/writing jobs I ever took had Chinese as a requirement, only as a “good to have”.
2) JB also worked his socks off whilst doing his job at Taiwan News (and in his current job for that matter), and is by no sense a slacker. Whilst at Taiwan News he produced some good interview pieces – Public Enemy is the one that comes to mind.
By my mind JB is a journalist by the same dint that people become actors, models, or artists – he’s done it, he made enough to live on through doing so. Insisting that people should have to make a good living is a bit silly since only a very few will ever do so.
3) JB is also the last guy I’d ever describe as ‘looking down’ at anything.