Muslim bank loans in Australia: Halal or haram?
Apparently there’s a huge untapped market where muslims in Australia aren’t taking out traditional loans because charging interest conflicts with sharia law. Despite traditional loan methods involving interest muslims are obviously still taking out loans to buy housing and cars, you only need to look at the western suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne to confirm this.
Presumably muslims are getting finance from independent third party operators in what must be a pretty controlled niche industry. Think about it, you offer loans to muslims who can’t go anywhere else but still need to finance essentials like a car or house. You don’t need to be muslim yourself to offer the loans, you just need to make sure the loan is halal by complying with the no-interest rule.
Where else are they going to go?
It has already been noted that the Islamic finance industry is booming in Asia and Latrobe University already offer an Islamic Banking and Finance degree, pre-empting Islamic finance as a future growth industry in Australia.
If we as a country want to exploit tap into this ludicrous market (religious people tend to have limited options when it comes loans), then logically the first step would be to test home grown products on Australian muslims.
Enter the National Bank of Australia.
This morning the National Bank of Australia (NAB) has announced plans to bring muslim-friendly loans into into mainstream finance by offering national muslim-friendly loans. From discrimination to public perception to actually turning over a profit there’s a seemingly large minefield in a national company announcing such an initiative.
On the surface though, the NAB seem to be doing it right.
The whole premise behind a muslim-friendly loan is that no interest is allowed to be charged on repayments. To get around this the bank simply purchase what it is you were after and then sell it back to you with a profit margin.
ie. I want a $1000 bicycle and go approach the bank. After some prayers and the sacrifice of a kitten the bank approves my loan and goes out and buys the bicycle for me. They then sell it back to me at say $1200. I still make repayments but the loan counts as being muslim approved because I’m not paying interest on the loan itself.
In the case of home loans, companies seem to get around the interest rates by charging ‘rent’ with the renter eventually acquiring a 100% financial stake in the property.
I know, talk about your religious technicalities.
As the Daily Telegraph points out, these type of loans have “the advantage of making the loan immune from future interest rate rises.” What isn’t disclosed though is the percentage increase on the cost of the item.
What could really make these loans appealing is if the increase in the selling price the banks put on the item they are reselling back to you is less then the variable interest rate on loans, or might be less in the near future.
For example say a bank offers you a $1000 loan at 5% variable interest and the interest rate has jumped twice in the last 6 months, if the muslim loan profit increase was at 5% or even less you could easily come out on top and as a bonus protect yourself from unstable interest rate rises.
Currently we’re starting to see this already happen in our financial sector with the Commonwealth bank deciding to “selfishly” start bumping up interest rates because you know, the recession is over. The bank were so slow to drop the rates but even at the slightest whiff of bounce back up they go.
In these cases a muslim style loan makes sense for the consumer, again providing the profit margin percentage is appealing. Given no facts and figures have been released other then the first round of loans will be $1000 or so capped to fifteen million of initial investment in the scheme I’m assuming the NAB is poised to take advantage and screw consumers.
If the model is sustainable on a small scale trial I guess it won’t be long before we see national fully fledged Australian bank backed muslim friendly mortgages.
Realistically all the NAB has to do is charge slightly less then the private operators who offer muslim loans do and they’ll be guaranteed a market share of the muslim loan industry. Given that anything more financially attractive then the standard ‘we charge you interest’ model would make the bulk of their currently loan models redundant (why pay more when you don’t have to?), there is no incentive to make muslim loans more appealing.
What is most likely going to happen is that these loans are heavily marketed to predominantly muslim areas but are offered to all members of the community. Naturally if you’re not bound by silly religious laws you’re not going to sign up to a loan that will cost you more then a normal interest loan, so that leaves only the ‘we have no other choice’ muslims left to be screwed over.
This way the banks appear to be offering non-discriminatory loans, are able to legally screw over a certain demographic who have no other choice due to silly religious laws and the ludicrous Sharia Advisory Board is kept afloat providing clerics to bless wads of loan money (or hard drives given finance is mostly all electronic these days).
Sounds like it’s win-win all round, well… except for muslim wallets.
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June 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pm Mohamad.D(Quote)
Hi,
It’s not hard to see by reading your article that you have no respect for the muslim people or their beliefs and in the end of the day you have no respect for yourself. Before you judge let me explain.
The whole point of not paying interest is to keep things fair and honest. Leaving your livelihood in the hands of the Reserve ‘Bank’ and the rest of their cohorts is a silly move when scrutinised.
The Reserve ‘Bank’ is a privately owned institution which moves to the beat of its own drum. Whenever they feel the need to raise or lower interest rates to suit their needs they do so regardless of the consumers needs. The amount ultimately paid isn’t what’s important to some people, but more the knowledge of how much they have to pay.
Personally i would rather hold my future in my own hands rather than the hands of the chairmen of the Reserve ‘Bank’. If you would rather let the rich and powerful control your life and steal your money that’s fine, us backwards cat sacrificing muslims ain’t gonna judge ya. Just know that without muslims and their beliefs there would be less understanding of the banking system amongst people, more of a monopoly over us and a few less options for EVERYBODY.
But i guess a person of your knowledge probably knows all of this already…
June 21st, 2009 at 3:11 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
It doesn’t take a scientist to workout I have zero respect or tolerance towards the Islamic religion, I admit so freely with my self respect intact.
As for your points on the Reserve bank, well this is true if you take out a variable interest rate loan. You do know that fixed interest rate loans are available right?
Obviously only fixed for a certain term and then renegotiated but you still know beforehand what you’re coughing up before you sign on the dotted line. A halal muslim ‘no interest’ loan is just a normal fixed term interest loan with no term.
You guys can call it what you want to appease your imaginary pie in the sky but it’s the same thing.
June 21st, 2009 at 5:26 pm Cuteface(Quote)
Oz -
You can have ur opinion and belief etc, but things like ‘It doesn’t take a scientist to workout I have zero respect or tolerance towards the Islamic religion, I admit so freely with my self respect intact’ on your blog is unnecessary.
You can choose not to respect anyone / anything as this is a free country, but don’t be rude!!!
Im sure you’d be upset when someone shows no respect of you or your loved ones… (or perhaps not, then I pity you!) It’s inappropriate to say such things in public!
June 21st, 2009 at 5:40 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Rude to who? The religion? I really don’t give a damn if Islam is offended that I think it’s a giant chauvanistic crock.
If someone wants to criticise my non-existant religion then by all means do so, I don’t really care. Criticising people is very different and naturally I’d take offense if someone personally insulted me or my loved ones. Probably not so much myself as I have to have a thick skin if I’m throwing my opinion out there.
Just because I might think holdens are shit doesn’t mean I think all the people who own are personally shit.
If you can’t give your own opinions on your own blog… well what is the world coming to?
June 21st, 2009 at 5:51 pm Cuteface(Quote)
Im not saying you cant but im saying don’t be rude… not rude to the religion but to the people who believe the religion……
Anyway… not here to argue but to express my opinion…
November 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm J(Quote)
Well it is quite obvious by your article the overwelming ‘repect’ (lack there of) you have for Muslims and their beliefs….by your remarks it is quite clear the lack of knowledge about Halal banking.
The point of Halal finance, done in accordance to Sharia, is to keep it just and fair. The commercial banks that use interest payements have riped you and countless others off for centuries….! in 25 year loan you would have paid for your home 3-4 times over. Correctly implemented halal home loans you only would have paid a small percentage on top of of house sale price by the end of the 25 yrs.
So who has the ‘silly’ religious law?
As for NAB… those who are educated in Islamic Halal finance which is quite simple to understand will be able to smell a rat. If NAB are taking advantage of anyone it may possibly be those who have no undersatnding of the Halal financing.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
You do. Whether you pay interest or buy back your home at an increased sale price from the bank the bottom line for them is still more money. I imagine on a home loan we’re not talking ‘interest’ of just a few thousand dollars either otherwise there’d be nothing in it for the halal lenders.
Without interest there’s nothing stopping people from borrowing and then failing to live within their means, just look at the sub prime mortgage mess the US is/was in.
If halal loans start massively undercutting regular interest loans (as in the buyback amount is vastly less then the interest paid on a standard homeloan) then everyone is going to jump on the bandwagon and we’re back to square one.
My problem isn’t so much the fact that it’s a muslim loan, respect for the religion aside, but rather that halal loans are the same thing as a fixed rate interest loans. Extra money is extra money to the banks who ‘riped’ us off.
January 13th, 2010 at 3:50 pm Jo(Quote)
Wow. You’re lack of respect for the muslim community is disguisting. You’re lack of respect for religion whatsoever is disguisting. But foremost, I didn’t come on this site to read a pathetic attempt at an attack on the religion of our fellow Australians by some ill educated moron. Halal home loans make sense to me much more than the traditional home loans, regardless of the fact that I’m not of muslim faith.
I suggest you start educating yourself on halal home loans under compliance with islamic faith before you embarrass yourself with such a incorrect, outdated and pathetic article on your blog.
Peace.
January 13th, 2010 at 4:05 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I’ve got a better idea, how about you explain how a halal home loan is any different then a regular home loan? The interest still exists either way it’s just locked in at a fixed rate and lump summed.
Let’s face it as far as compliance goes it’s merely a technicality so that muslims can apply for loans and buy houses on crdit like everyone else.
As for religious respect, I’m certainly not going to apologise for my criticism of them. Respect is earnt, not a right.
January 13th, 2010 at 5:53 pm Jo(Quote)
Yep I agree with that. I meant a traditional home loan as in one that’s interest rates are determined by the reserve bank. I’d rather have the bank buy the house for me then sell it back at a price agreed on by both parties.
I agree it is merely a technicality so that muslims can apply for loans but what’s so bad about that?
Oh and your comment on sacraficing kittens is, dispite your own belief, not humourous. It just shows your lack of knowledge and respect for a religion.
January 13th, 2010 at 6:44 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
If you’re smart and in the market you’ll buy on an interest rate downtrend. You’re only hurting yourself by locking into a high interest rate.
No bank is ever going to offer a fixed term low interest rate for a home loan, the halal factored in rates will always be higher then the market rate.
Banks are businesses and all a halal loan does is bring the exploitation of people’s religious beliefs to mainstream business.
March 16th, 2010 at 6:47 pm May(Quote)
Ignoring your humourless insults towards Islam and its followers, what you’re basically saying is that Islamic finance is just another way of implementing fixed rate loans, right?
You yourself, however, said that the difference is that the “profit rate” is charged on the property itself, and not on the money borrowed. So this could take form of charging rent and so forth until the property is paid in full and acquired. After all, Islamically, charging interest on the dollar is, quite simply, forbidden.
Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant. So what is it exactly that bugs you? You haven’t really explained how this will exploit the muslim borrower (or lowly commoner as you would probably have it). A loan would presumably only be undertaken if there is fairness to both parties and I imagine if the borrower is not happy with the terms, he/she will sign up to it.
I’m off to slaughter a cat now, I’ll save you a piece.
March 17th, 2010 at 12:58 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
My point is that it’s the same thing. Somebody paid calculated interest and the
Religious loopholes aside I can’t imagine everyone running around with home loans that aren’t pegged to the economy as being good for global economies. At the end of the day Mr and Mrs Halal pay the same interest in the same fashion as everyone else, it’s just called something different.
Sure it might be slightly more or less depending on variable interest rates but in principle it’s the same. You borrow money and paid back more then you borrowed.
My ultimate hangup is that it’s purely a religious offering. Independant loaners can cater to niche markets but I’d rather our big 4 didn’t start pandering exclusive financial services to minority groups on the basis of religion.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:10 pm Wombo(Quote)
Good article.
April 17th, 2010 at 1:01 am RA(Quote)
Halal loan is not same as the fixed rate loan since fixed rate loan will grow with loan periods/ total years..but halal loan is the fixed with whatever no of years you repay, it will not penalise you for not repaying 1/2 months…it is to help people who are lending.
April 18th, 2010 at 5:41 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Uh so if I miss a repayment there’s no penalty? What’s the incentive stopping people from just not paying back halal loans in a timely manner then?
A fixed rate loan will have an interest increase if you miss a repayment, surely there is a halal loan equivalent financial penalty?
May 6th, 2010 at 9:17 am Dawn(Quote)
What you don’t seem to know is that interest to be paid on loans is also against the Christian faith, known Biblically as “The Laws of Usery”.
FYI
I personally would prefer to negotiate a markup with a bank for the house loan rather than be subjected to rate changes.
So I will be trying to seek out a non-interest type loan somewhere is Australia.
Dawn
July 9th, 2010 at 6:28 am ryte(Quote)
Why are we arguing with this jackass again? :s
He seems like one of those ignorant dumb asses who know what they;re on about, but their red neck behavior takes the best of them. May I suggest Mr. ozsoapbox that you start talking about religion with some respect? That is if you were raised that way ofcourse
thanks
July 9th, 2010 at 3:53 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Thankfully my parents didn’t religiously indoctrinate me so I’m able to think on my own without any religious interference.
Respect is earnt and Islam in Australia continues to try and force itself upon me. As of yet I see no reason to give the religion (not it’s followers) any ounce of respect.
July 9th, 2010 at 5:38 pm Steve(Quote)
I have no problem with banks offering this. There’s no such thing as a nice bank, so you can guarantee that they’re going to be just as well off with islamic loans as they would be with traditional loans.
This doesn’t mean that the islamic loans aren’t stupid, though.
So, you find a house you like. It’s $500,000. You approach the bank. They do their checks and come back and say “Yes, we’ll buy it, and you can buy it back from us at $1,300,000, paying $5500 a month”.
So far, in essence, there’s no real difference between this and a fixed rate interest loan, but what happens when 4 months in, you hit the jackpot and inherit $5,000,000. With most regular loans, you can pay them off ahead of time and save on interest. What happens with the islamic loans? Presumably you still have to pay the full $1,300,000. To lessen this amount for paying it off quicker would appear to acknowledge some concept of interest, and we couldn’t have that.
And if there are provisions in place so you can pay it off quicker and save money, then one must beg the question: WHAT’S THE FUCKING POINT?
You just end up tying yourself in knots to appease some non-existent sky-daddy. It’s ridiculous. This is why people don’t respect religion. Not because they’re mean, but because it’s stupid, childish nonsense.
July 29th, 2010 at 6:36 pm Sumon(Quote)
Peace.
One factor need to be consider is, Islamic finance is not only for consumers but also for investors. If you choose your money will not be invested to weapon industry, or alcohol industry or brothel, it will certainly make some difference in the community as a whole.
I think we need to see the bigger picture.
July 30th, 2010 at 2:46 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
How do Islamic banks or lenders guarantee this?
Nothing short of handling the money from start point to end investor point (not the right terms but you know what I mean) is going to guarantee it. In an age of investing in a company and then that company using the money to invest in something else, wash, rinse and repeat 10 times, it seems like a bit of a monumental task.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:26 pm Sumon(Quote)
Well, you are correct “it is a bit of a monumental task.”. That is one of the big reason people come towards Islamic banking or you can say “Ethical banking”. Because the borrowers can be ensured that their money is going to be invested on some beneficial sector of the community.
That is one of the big philosophy behind. Not to driven by capitalist idea rather drive the finance industry more ethical and beneficial way. Not much investing on entertainment industry rather invest more on health, transportation, house, etc. sectors.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:41 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
I don’t recall running into anyone promoting ethical investment when I was researching this article but if true then yes I’ll concede it’s a positive aspect of Islamic finance.
I’m still curious though as to how Islamic financers/financial institutions guarantee it short of wholly owning the properties/companies they are investing in though.
August 19th, 2010 at 3:43 am Well Wisher(Quote)
Ozsoapbox,
Let me give you the answer to your repetitive rant about , Islam earning your respect.
You are a nobody , and are insignificant in every-sense of the word, you will die one day and you will be surprised at the three questions waiting for you.
Islam doesn’t need to earn your respect , On the contrary , there was nothing good in you for Islam to choose you. Be careful with your ignorant attitude , a day will come when you will shed tears of blood , and will bite your hands in regret, don’t say no one told you so , if you keep at this.
Regards,
A Well Wisher
August 19th, 2010 at 3:49 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
No I won’t. When I’m dead I’ll be dead, no imaginary pie in the sky will be asking me any questions thankyou very much.
Take your holier then thou chosen people attitude and shove it.
August 19th, 2010 at 1:34 pm Erica(Quote)
wow Oz, that’s… um… not very nice and respectful at all! I usually enjoy your writing but this comment really put me off a bit. I respect your non-religious belief but I hope you also respect others choices of religion. Of course, that’s only my own personal opinion, just a little advice as one of your fans / readers
August 20th, 2010 at 3:21 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Well coming home and reading about how
should be enough to put anyone in a bad mood. I respect people’s rights to believe in whatever fairy tales they might wish to, but start to get preachy and the gloves come off.
I only ever share my opinon on religions here, I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything or professing my beliefs are better then anyone elses.
August 20th, 2010 at 3:53 pm Erica(Quote)
Well, I guess some of the tones of language you used in your articles (i.e. whatever fairy tales they might wish to) might also offend some people, thats how they fight back with… even more unpleasant words.
I only ever share my opinon on religions here, I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything or professing my beliefs are better then anyone elses.
Thats a healthy attitude! Maybe, be careful with some wordings if you’d like. Of course, this is coming from a non-Muslim, non-Christian person who only knows you via this blog! I’m sure you are a much better person than you sound like here (sometimes!).
August 20th, 2010 at 3:53 pm Erica(Quote)
btw, I messed up with the quoting system so my comment above looks all ‘quoted’. My apology.
August 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm LK(Quote)
This has been the most interesting thing I’ve read all day!!! I got alot to say and ask and I hope I don’t lose you. First off, why are you so intolerant of Islam? Somewhere in the earlier posts you said “Respect is earnt and Islam in Australia continues to try and force itself upon me. As of yet I see no reason to give the religion (not it’s followers) any ounce of respect.” Im curious to how islam is being forced on you. Only people can force anything on you, which we shouldn’t be doing anyway.
You have the choice to beleive in watever you want without harasment or ill judgement and historically Islam has taught muslims that. But I don’t think you should feel so seemingly hateful.
I am muslim myself and I don’t find it very fair that on sunday mornings 30 tv stations are running church coverage. By controlling a good portion of TV thats in a way forcing christian beleifs on me. But I’m not going to get disrespectful or rude at them or the people handing out “Jesus Loves You” pamphlets in the parking lot while I’m just trying to buy some juice out of walmart. But I’m not going to tell you what to say, or be offended, or offend you.
Islam is composed of the words in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Its takes a lifetime to understand thoroughly but sometimes people misinterpret, and muslims can act in a way that we should not.
So I apologize on behalf of the muslims for anything said or done to you that should not have been. I live in Richmond, VA, USA. Home to the slave trade and alot of racism still lives here. So between racial remarks because I am black or religious attacks, harsh words is nothin new to me. I just hope by being sincere and not returning the verbal abuse, people adjust to make dialougue comfortable for all parties invloved.
Yes that was entirely too long… So back to the subject.
I feel like there’s a problem. The problem is greed. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Free Mason, WATEVER. For one I think that the banking systems muslim and non are aimed to make too much profit. Two, people have gotten used to having what they can’t afford. Three, government taxation is rediculous. And Four, there are too many “you make too much” restrictions.
The economy in America is jacked because people make $40,000 a year but try to live like they make $100,000 a year. My dad built a house from the ground up, cost $35,000. The same house built in the city sittin on less land would be $139,000. Now the local govt determines how much the house is worth. They shoot higher because that means more taxes going to them. The bank has to loan you more, which again is taxed more on the bank end, and the bank also wants to make a profit so the big wigs up top can buy 2 million dollar yatchs.
Now lets say I want to not get wrapped up in mortgage interest and all and want to move to an apartment cheap enough that I can save up reasonably in a few years to buy a home in cash. The aparment complex tells you, you make too much so you have to move to a more expensive one which charges you just enough that you will never be able to save enough money to really buy a nice, not over the top home.
So either I move to a trailer park to save, I pay rent until I die, take out a mortgage that is going to end up in most instances costing me 2-4 times the amount of the home, or take out an islamic mortgage costing me 2-3 times the amount of the home. Everything about our economy is focused on keeping the “people” in debt.
Islamic loans would work wonders if they were more modest more of the time, say $150,000 home bought and payed back for $200,000. Enough of those and they will have more than enough reasonable profit. It just may take a while, but thats the point of a company making an investment. Sure paying 1.3mil on a 500K home would return that money alot faster, but that doesn’t help the people. And if we are the people, and its not helping the people, who are we helping?
And one more word to the wise. Islam doesnt need to earn respect. No one can take away nor add to it. It is complete and whole. BUT, people do need to give respect freely which I have tried to do and I hope I have earned your respect even if no more than respectful dialogue.
Hopefully someone can come up with a way to remove dying in debt from living modern…
From the other side of the world… literally, Peace(dueces)
August 21st, 2010 at 9:34 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Some interesting discussion here guys. Thanks for the feedback, I’ll take it on board.
@Erica
Perhaps but I do try to go after the religion itself and the ideas it represents rather then the people who follow it. I guess the equivalent Well Wisher’s comments would be me crapping on about how everyone should stop following religion because firstly it’s idiotic, and secondly we’re all just going to wind up as wormfood.
I don’t have a problem with muslims as people, it’s just the religion they follow that gets me. Moderate muslims at this point would say ‘what about me?’ but I find it hard to be moderate in a religion that basically orders you to propagate itself without reason or rationale.
@LK
I really dislike the mindset it instills in people as well as the fact Islam appears to not be a passive religion. Ie. if I follow Islam it’s my life goal to see the world convert.
That and the level of devotion Islam demands seems to attract more then it’s fair share of nutjobs. Then you’ve got the Sharia governments in the Middle East, women’s rights and the viewpoint that anyone who isn’t muslim is dirty trash.
The west is seeing more and more muslims migrating and rather then adapting to their new environments, instead trying to convert it to their believe system and what they’ve previously left.
Needless to say there’s a lot I don’t like about the religion.
Uh what? In America you can’t choose what apartment you want to buy!? That’s seriously messed up.
So would the interest based system though. If people were borrowing within their means then there’d be no problems. Banks and lenders target people who live outside of their means by charging high interest because they understand these people (as long as they don’t go bankrupt) are the most profitable. Charge enough interest and you basically create an ongoing profitable residual income off them.
The same could be done with Islamic loans and I have no qualms in believing it would should they ever become mainstream. Instead of interest though you’d adjust the extra price whacked onto the house to maximise the amount you receive in repayments. Tailored of course to your clients income to keep them in debt.
I guess it’s easier without interest building up to escape debt under a halal loan due to fixed repayments but that wasn’t what I was originally writing about. In principle the interest is still paid, it’s just paid under a fixed lump sum – that was my original point.
No worries mate. I’m happy to discuss my views but my back goes up the second I hear ‘you’re going to hell!’ or the such equivalent. You have your religious views and I have my views, we don’t need to resort to petty threats about judgement, three questions and what not to have an intelligent and level headed discussion. Thanks for your contribution.
The only people that can remove debt are the people racking it up. The government can step in of course but I’d prefer to see people take personal responsibility for their finances. We cotton ball people up so much these days though it’s becoming harder and harder to do so I think.
August 22nd, 2010 at 7:13 pm LK(Quote)
Yeah its totally retarded. Not sure if all states are like that but that last crappy apt I was in raised rent to like $750/mo. All the apts I liked were $1000/mo and any apt under $700 pretty much told me I made too much so even if I wanted to deal with them just to save up I couldn’t.
So yeah, I bought a house w/ a $1056/mo mortgage. At least I can’t hear my neighbors through the walls!!
Yes unfortunately can’t defer the nutjobs but neither can any other faith. Womens rights in Islam is VERY misunderstood. Many times people mix a countries history of culture and custom with Islam because they are a primarily muslim country. And of course with our great selective media, a certain outside image gets attached to the religion instead of the heritage of the country.
As a muslim born in the US I’ve been approached many times by immigrant muslims with the famous “Well in my country we…”. And I’ll simply ask where in the Quran or Sunnah does it say to do such and such that way… Most times I don’t get an asnwer so that politely gets followed with a summarized ‘maybe you should go back to your country’.
Ya know its funny… I was just talkin to my wife last night. For muslims its Ramadan right now, the holy month of fasting. And I had heard from this guy that in Egypt, the night becomes like major party time. And she had heard the same thing from this guy Mike she works with who is Christian but he’s from egypt also. And he was like he loves Ramadan because there’s so much food and the nightlife is so active. And they guy telling me about it was saying people pretty much eat and socialize from the time they break fast at sunset until sohur, the time they stop eating in the early morning to begin thier fast. Then the place becomes almost dead and people sleep until its time to break again.
That is so contrary to what islam teaches us about fasting and the why and the how, but a tourist visiting that country would see a mass amount of muslims, and then see that behaviour and stick the two together in thier minds for all eternity and think and tell people thats what Ramadan is about.
And rightfully so, to a degree I feel you can’t blame the observer, blame the people portraying the wrong image. I was mind blown like WAT THE HECK and later we wonder why we have issues of being misunderstood later on down the road.
Same thing with the governments. Governments are still a body of people. They just have money, power and influence and unfortunetly more and more misuse them all. But that kinda goes back to how I feel I can almost hate people, especially those of hypocritical nature, but never the religion.
For me its becoming easier to distinguish thier acts from acts based on Islam. But you gotta know whats right in order to recognize whats wrong. Kinda like you don’t know your being a bad car unless you know how to recognise a good one.
Sorry this has become so lengthy. Don’t mean to like take over the blog or anything so…..
Simply and wholeheartedly… I agree
Catch you later! P-CE
August 22nd, 2010 at 7:16 pm LK(Quote)
LOL, where the heck did my picture come from?!?! And why that one? Thats horrible shot! wow, the internet got a mind of its own!
August 22nd, 2010 at 8:10 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
My only problem with this is what if I don’t want to fast. Can I eat during the day normally without people giving me the death stare/making violent threats etc.?
Also Ramadan goes on for a month or something doesn’t it? How do you stay up all night partying for a month? And there’s the issue of partying itself. Islam being dry I imagine the parties are a bit slow or us non-believers.
I’m not saying alcohol is compulsory for a good night out but religious partying generally isn’t my cup of tea.
That’s alright I appreciate the discussion. There’s a few lengthy discussions going on here at the moment so you’re not alone
.
LOL, where the heck did my picture come from?!?! And why that one? Thats horrible shot! wow, the internet got a mind of its own!
You’ve used a slightly different email address for the comment with the picture (typo?). OzSoapbox uses Gravatars which enable photo avatars to be matched with email addresses. A
At some point you’ve linked that photo to the email address you used in that comment so my site has replicated that matchup display wise. Hope that makes sense.
October 14th, 2010 at 11:01 pm LT(Quote)
Most of muslims (general public) do not usually have insider knowlege about things like islamic finances because to be able to explain these things u need to have studied islam at like a university stage and be really will informed.
The basic of islamic finance is any gain should come as a result of an investment in a trade that is ethical and allowed so no (drug dealing, selling wine and pork etc).
Monopoly (Ihtikar) is also not allowed in islam so you cannot store goods out of the market for the sake that its price will go up then you offer it. Riba (interest) should be avoided so you cannot lend money for a person to do a project and tell him that he has to pay you back the money plus fixed interest even if he lost in that investment.
An tool of islamic investment is called (Mudaraba)in which a person gives money to another to invest and they share both winnings and loss at a pre approved percentage (for example 50% of the profits or loss). In this way you dont know how much money you both will make untill the end (ie: you import the goods, sell it and see how much profit you made).
To really know the significance of islam you have to study the arab society before and after islam to know how preislamic finance methods did to people who needed money.
Islam encourages rich people to give (Al Qard Al Hasan) which is interest free loan to people in need. A muslim should always pay his debt and loans he took under severe punishment from god if he did not. That is the basic of islamic finance Trust between muslims and fear of god. A muslim should not cheat or not pay his debt.
Of cource if you do not pay your debt you get punished by the government. if you cannot pay your debts for a reason beyond your control, there is still hope. In islam charity money (Zakat) can be given to those in debt to clear their debts.
So Islamic finance can solve lots of problems if we really get to know what it is and invest in reasearch about it as the world changes every day.
October 15th, 2010 at 4:18 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Thanks for the insight LT, I think you highlighted a critical point;
I have no doubt that Islamic finance might work in a society completely built around Islam but Australia isn’t one of those societies.
Trying to mash elements of Islamic finance with our pre-existing capatalist system just doesn’t work as to compete in the marketplace, the version of Islamic finance we get equates to nothing more than a fixed rate interest loan.
October 16th, 2010 at 5:27 pm Rayaan(Quote)
Firstly, I would like to start off by saying that I totally agree with the fact that the “Islamic Home Loans” don’t make sense because they shouldn’t be more expensive than regular home loans and they shouldn’t be more expensive than the initial price of the house itself. But of course, thats impossible in our modern times, because somebody has to make a profit. That does not mean the religion itself is made up of silly rules, on the contrary, it just proves how pure it is.
Next, I would like to say that you should never disrespect the religion itself, the religion itself has no way of offending you, no way of defending itself. If you lose respect, it should be for the person who has falsely presented the religion they claim to be a part of.
I have lived in America and now I live in Australia. I can honestly say that I don’t blame you for the way you see Islam. I am shocked at the way Muslims depict Islam in this country, its horrific. But its people like LK that are able to maintain balance whilst practicing a religion that is truly about peace. The blog became one of intellect when he arrived, and so I would like to thank you LK for representing our religion with such dignity.
Ozsoapbox please express your opinions, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that. People who do not like what you write shouldn’t read it. But I would also like to point out that just as you have falsely declared that Muslims sacrifice kittens, several things about Islam have been twisted. You cant believe everything you read on the internet. And lastly, no, we do not believe that all nonbelievers are trash. Whoever has told you that is not practicing Islam correctly, so please don’t quote them again.
October 17th, 2010 at 1:12 am Rahman(Quote)
The fundamental viability of any state is its economic system. The inability of the Muslim world in creating viable economic models that are not cheap replicas of Western economies is perhaps the biggest challenge that we face.
Riba XE “Riba” (interest) is central to the western economy and for Muslims this is unacceptable. Any models we develop on the lines of their system is therefore fundamentally unislamic. We have to be brave in breaking new ground, in finding a viable alternative framework rather than finding the latest trick in the book to put another name for riba, and somehow guise it as “rent” or “fee” or the many other terms we play with.
Riba is wrong, there is no going around this. ( mehiraj hossein)
October 19th, 2010 at 3:08 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Rayaan
Uh… and what? Back in the day nobody needed to make a profit? People still had to eat in the 1600′s so it’s got nothing to do with modern times.
That works if you have the fundamental belief that religion itself is perfect. This is a theory I do not subscribe to so if I believe the religion itself is inherently flawed, it doesn’t really matter who’s presenting it.
Rather I see it as we’re all the same and it’s merely the belief system (religion) they’ve adopted that is flawed. Religion is the divider, not the fact that we’re all human.
This isn’t just Islam, this is all religions. Go out and convert the masses seems to be a common thread amongst all the world’s religions and in this sense it doesn’t just apply to Islam. Whilst ‘trash’ might not be the term used, those in the religion do see something missing in the rest of us and feel the need to try and fill that with their religion, hence the desire to convert.
Of course not all followers might share this one world one religion vision but that doesn’t mean it’s not inscribed into the religion itself.
@Rahman
I don’t envy you guys and it makes me infinitely glad that my life isn’t governed by religious rules.
October 20th, 2010 at 3:38 am Rahman(Quote)
I live in london, we are not governed by religious rules but we are governed by a flawed system.
Banking seems to dominate to a greater extent,so the economic cycles are more volatile. Banking is responsible for much of the money supply in the economy and this money supply tends to fluctuate because of its connection to banks, they accentuate the volatility of the money supply, which in turn emphasize the volatilityin demand.
Removing fractional reserve banking and intrest based economy is likely to make booms and busts far less of a problem as the money supply in the economy is less likely to fluctuate.
not only intrest is wrong, there many other issues that are linked and are equally greater importance, For instance fractional reserve banking as well as the concept of limited liability, are again non islamic.Fractional reserve banking allows money to be created out of thin air. Limited liability allows businesses to exist without proper assignment of risk to constituents of the business.
Today economies subsidize loans over investment in equity because intrest payments are not taxable while dividends are. this puts investors at a disadvantage and gives banking a leg up.there doesnt seem to be any rationalization for this. but suffice to say intended or unintended. Within investments in equity, corporations created in limited liabilty (in legal entity) and by extension the stock market, dominate.
Money supply should be maintained at a rate that would be approximatley keep prices constant. We have seen the negative impact of inflation and loose goverment spending and a exploitive banking system, a recipe for disaster.
A banking system which creates no real debt for people, having to ask consent before investing our money, a wealth tax imposed for the rich to go to the poor, were everything is affordable, and people staying on almost one level, so there is no massive division between the rich and poor.
Not only for muslims, like from when islam was first given to us and the state of madina bieng the first islamic state, were muslims and non-muslims lived in peace and harmony.
The Quran is a guide. it combines faith with knowledge, truth and evidence go together.
so its not about living under religous rules.
Unfortunatley we have some very corrupt leaders in the east aswell as the west, money and power.
May peace be upon you. and may god give peace to those with no food or shelter…
October 20th, 2010 at 2:43 pm J(Quote)
Masha Allah, Brother well said….that’s what it boils down to is knowledge, there is far to many of us (Muslims and non muslims) who lack it.
And of course truth and evidence go hand in hand, the only thing that get in the way from seeing the light is predjudices, preconceived ideas, other motivations/desires and arrogance.
Riba is simply not an option in Islam, it is unexceptable and leads only to destruction to a minor and/or major degree but destruction just the same in many aspects of the human condition.
There is wisdom in all that is revealed by our Creator.
Peace be to all, may God keep us all far from Riba.
October 23rd, 2010 at 8:34 am Rayaan(Quote)
@ ozsoapbox
“Uh… and what? Back in the day nobody needed to make a profit? People still had to eat in the 1600′s so it’s got nothing to do with modern times.”
You see oz, people in the 1600′s did eat, they just didn’t rip other people off in order to do so. It has everything to do with modern times. You lack the knowledge of Islam, and it doesn’t surprise me. You don’t want to know about Islam because you have already formed your decision regarding all religions. But may I suggest that you not disrespect something you are ignorant of?
I am not going to sit here and preach to you because even if I did want to “convert you”, I would know that you are set in your ideas and nothing will change unless you want it to.
So oz, it has been a joy trying to help you open your eyes, but until you have decided to be a little more open minded, there is no point in debating with you. Its your blog, write, and believe what you want.
As for me, I’m going to venture into the great outdoors and marvel at how such beauty could have just resulted from a big bang, at how the human body functions perfectly because we evolved from a single cell. Because obviously, we are thanking a God that does not exist, and we are being “governed by religious rules”. The fact that we praise a Lord for creating the world is simply ridiculous when compared to the idea of evolution, simply ridiculous.
I haven’t a clue as to how so many people have been ensnared into this web of lies. You truly are a lucky one oz, you’ve beaten the system, good on you.
October 23rd, 2010 at 3:22 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
How did money lenders make any money if interest was prohibited? If you lend out 100% of a sum and take back in 100% of a sum you’ve made no money. No money means no food…
And here’s the rub… exactly what information have you provided that gives me any reason to be open minded or any more receptive to Islam? Sitting on a high horse proclaiming anyone vocally critical of anything is close minded is a waste of time and only highlights your inadequacy in conveying these beliefs you’re supposed to be so intimate with.
Science is wonderful, isn’t it.
The human body certainly doesn’t function perfectly.. I don’t know what rock you live under but our bodies have a miriad of problems that come with them. The inability to fight off various diseases is just one. Evolution is an ongoing process and currently our environmental effect on our lifestyle is outstripping the pace our bodies can keep up.
There’s certainly not some guy in the sky flipping ‘thou shalt now be immune to X’ switches…
One of the flaws of the ‘perfect human body’ is that humans are susceptible to beleiving unsubstantiated utter nonsense. Often this takes the form of religion.
October 23rd, 2010 at 6:15 pm Rayaan(Quote)
Oz, people who don’t have money won’t be lending it. So it only makes sense to say that only those who are capable of affording enough food AND are still able to lend money, will be doing so. Besides, lending money is not the ONLY form of making money.
Oz, what information have YOU provided? You cannot cite wikipedia and expect me to believe it. Any man woman or child could go on wikipedia and type up some rubbish that they believe is true. If you have ever attended secondary school, you would be aware of the fact that wikipedia is an unreliable source. But here I go again, rambling up here on my high horse.
I refuse to cite any information, not because I don’t have it, but because I know you’ll dissect it just as you dissect every word I write. I realize that the previous statement seems like I have no evidence, but I know its there, I know what it is, and I don’t think you really want to hear it for the sake of learning.
And its true, I should be more familiar with my religion, your comment has only encouraged me to do so. Because every time I learn something about Islam, when I learn something TRUE about Islam, from PROPER sources, I love my religion so much more.
And yes, science is wonderful, it just doesn’t explain everything.
Oz, I don’t appreciate the rock comment, it was uncalled for (that was a bit of humor to relieve the tension, I don’t hate you, I’m just frustrated. (Don’t make me regret typing that sentence by dissecting it)).
Moving on, I don’t know if you realize that many of the problems that affect the human body are actually the individual’s fault.
However, there are genetically inherited diseases, and those are our tests. We learn from them, we become patient, thankful, and compassionate. I know that this whole religious thing doesn’t appeal to you, I’m just trying to show you the other side, so don’t put it down, just read it and let it marinate.
That is your belief, I’m not going to put it down, and I’m not going to dis you for believing it. I would thank you to do the same for me.
I don’t plan on commenting again, so please don’t think that I am “retreating” for lack of a better word. I just can’t spend my time defending my beliefs to someone who couldn’t give a damn. Thanks for your time, thanks for your thoughts, but that’s it for me.
Rayaan
October 24th, 2010 at 12:45 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Rayaan
So you mean like charity? Am I to understand that money lenders simply did not exist outside of a charity model back in the golden days of Islam?
Of course not, but in the context of this article it doesn’t quite make sense to discuss farming or running a shop. The article is about islamic home loans and money lending. From what you’re saying being a money lender was more of a charitable side job you did if you could afford to not make any money of it.
God forbid somebody didn’t pay their loan back or missed a repayment? What then….? I’m sure not everyone was an honest tom back in the 1600′s.
Well let’s see, hows about a blog article and then extensive comment replies with cited sources. A hell of a lot more then ‘nah nah you’re closed minded not talking to you nah nah!’
Seriously, are we still crapping on about Wikipedia? Here, because you’re too lazy to click on the source cited yourself for the information I quoted here’s the relevant link. Read it yourself and stop trying to use Wikipedia as a strawman.
If you still believe the UAE government is run differently as to how it’s presented in Wikipedia feel free to cite your own sources and edit the entry.
Meanwhile you’ve presented the idea that people back in the day just lended money with no financial incentive or expectation of a return in the form of profit, and did so without providing any sources. Yet, when someone uses Wikipedia who actually cites credible sources the sky falls down.
Where are your sources?
So you whinge about Wikipedia… but you’re only source is talking out of your arse, which thankfully you know is there.
Hyprocritical much?
‘waah I don’t want to provide sources because you’ll analyze them!’
Yeah, god forbid anyone analyze a religious argument or put it under any scrutiny.
Perfect is perfect and if the human body was perfect it’d be able to deal with this. But it’s not.
So either god is flawed, hates humans and has subsequently provided us with less then perfect bodies, or evolution hasn’t yet found a way to cope with our fast paced lifestyles as our technology has rocketed along over the last 100 years.
December 14th, 2010 at 3:48 am WhereOntotheInvaders(Quote)
Hello,
The bare fact here is that this is Australia where religions are not involved or should be in Financial Affairs. Despite the fact there are some wealthy Muslims and other Foreign Invaders Should not mean we cater for you especially or should any bank at all!!!
If you wish to deal with Australia then DEAL ON OUR TERMS as we would ON YOUR TERMS AND if you do not like it then please return to your own land and try it on them- obviously you didnt do to well there so try again!
end of story
December 14th, 2010 at 9:51 pm noinvadershere(Quote)
If you wish to deal with Australia then DEAL ON OUR TERMS as we would ON YOUR TERMS AND if you do not like it then please return to your own land and try it on them- obviously you didnt do to well there so try again! end of story
Hi WhereOntotheInvaders
Your comment is quite closed minded and obviously you know next to nothing about Halal banking. If Australia was to ‘ever’ implement it…. it would be to OUR benefit including YOU.
But don’t worry as long as people like you keep supporting vaiable interest and bank fees so share holders getting richer and bank executives walk out with millions in bonus…. paid by the ordinary joe…. Halal banking will never happen here.
By the way I am Australian born and bred and many more anglo saxons like me are looking at halal banking alternatives as users and providers to make life better and easier and fairer for you too.
How can that be bad? I think Sir you’ve shown nothing but your hate in your comment without substance.
January 7th, 2011 at 1:00 pm Sayed(Quote)
I have gone through most of the comments; I think no one was able to mention the basic concepts behind a halal loan (qarz hassana).
Muslims are only allowed to borrow money and return the same amount,,, say you ask your friend to lend you $50 and you use it and return $50 to your friend after 10 days. This is a halal loan.
Interest is not allowed in any form in Islam. The only way a Muslim can get a loan from bank is to make sure that both parties (bank and customer) are sharing risk and profits.
Mentioned above, Banks buy houses and resale them at higher price is not a shria compliant transaction at all because it is removing the risk factor for the Bank (being one party to transaction). Bank will only buy the house if the customer agrees to buy the house at 10% or 20% more. This 10% or 20% guarantee the bank’s profitability without any risk.
If there is no risk to bank,,, the additional amount paid to bank will be defined as interest and hence the product will not be Halal.
I hope, now my non Muslim friends who think that fixed loans are the same as the halal loans have a better understanding and my Muslim friends know that if bank buys with the guaranteed intention that they will resale at higher price is not halal.
January 7th, 2011 at 3:25 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Thankyou for clarifying that point. I have one question though, is your line of thinking commonplace or is it more of a fundamentalist view? (I know the negative connotations fundamentalist has these days and I’m not trying to exploid that, just curious).
I couldn’t understand how the bank removing all risk by simply purchasing the house or whatever at a higher price and then charging set repayments was any different to a fixed rate loan and it’s good to see other muslims can see this too.
That aside, how exactly does your version of a halal loan fit into a commercial sense then? Or are true halal loans strictly a repayable ‘act of charity’ type affair amongst friends and family?
January 25th, 2011 at 1:42 am Cat Lover(Quote)
@noinvadershere – well seems to me you do not realise that there are non halal banks in Islamic countries that are providing non Muslims with non halal banking services, so why do you think Muslims should not have halal options in Oz?
If we are to use your “logic” they should all DEAL ON ISLAMIC TERMS there or leave the Muslim lands and go home too. Seems to me you are just a bigot.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:58 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Because I don’t think what’s on offer in Islamic countries should have any bearing on what is made available here.
If they did so I really couldn’t care less. With the globalisation of trade and finance they’d only be hurting themselves.
January 26th, 2011 at 4:49 am Cat Lover(Quote)
@ozsoapbox -So that makes you a hypocrite as well as a bigot
January 26th, 2011 at 6:46 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Agree totally Oz…
What people choose to do in another country has no bearing whatsoever on what we choose to do in Australia. This kind of thing is usually raised as a classic “straw man” argument by Muslim apologists (for example) such as Cat Lover.
Ahh… the classic ad hominem argument: If you can’t defend your argument, you simply attack the character of your opponent. Sorry Cat Lover — not good enough.
January 26th, 2011 at 9:39 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Cat lover.
Yes that makes perfect sense. I don’t think services offered in other countries half way across the world should reflect what is offered in Australia has anything to do with being bigoted and hypocritical.
Run along and go buy yourself a dictionary.
January 26th, 2011 at 9:40 pm Caffeinated SentryGnome(Quote)
and look what happened to AWB when they did that
February 16th, 2011 at 2:48 pm Joynul Abedin(Quote)
Hello Assalamualaikum,
I am a Muslim of Bangladesh. I have got retired from Bangladesh Army. I haven’t got any property from my parents. I have done made a house with my retirement pay. Now I am doing a small business with bank loan.
I want to get establish and next times want to give Zakat and sadakat. So I think any Muslim brother will help me for my establishment from this poverty condition.
Insha Allah I’ll try to cover this shortness within a short time. Thanks!
Best regards
Joynul Abedin khan
February 19th, 2011 at 6:58 pm Unity(Quote)
Hi everyone,
I know this blog is a little outdated now, but I was reading it and was just thinking… If you are willing to pay a bank for the next 20-something years at a particularly higher rate than if you bought a house outright, along with the risk of dealing with riba (regardless of what name it is masking itself as).
Why not just save your money for those 20-something years, get a group of people to save along with you. Pool your money, buy a house at a time. There are a lot of options that dont involve interest.
Err on the side of caution involving this topic. Interest brings a great deal of hardship. Rent, share house, save.. Anything but interest.
Just throwing my 2 cents in.
With regards to the whole topic of Islam..
Before you disregard it and its teachings, can I please implore you to have a listen to Khalid Yaseens Purpose of life lecture. Not to convert you, but to understand the essence of the teachings and core topics of the belief system of Islam.
I myself converted to Islam and only looked at the religion to strike it off the list of “potential” religions. The “Islam”you are privy to, the media gimmicks, the misguided youth of Sydney you see, the cultural beliefs being pawned off as religious ones..
It is not doing the core structure of Islam any justice.. It really is the most beautiful way of life you could imagine.
AS
Unity
February 19th, 2011 at 7:20 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Hey Unity, it’s never too late to discuss a topic. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
This sounds to me like you were almost religion shopping. Is this the best way to approach the action of joining a religion?
Kind of like walking into a store and buying something ‘just because’. I’d have thought it’d have been better to let a particular religion call out to you, rather then approach the whole idea methodically with a side by side comparison.
Dunno about being a beautiful life but if more muslims thought like this then we’d all be better off. Cheers.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:36 pm Yasmin(Quote)
This remark re how halal loans work is appaling, inflamatory, unnecessary, and shows an appaling lack of education and tolerance.
April 18th, 2011 at 1:22 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Anybody else see the irony in this comment?
Still laughing.
May 4th, 2011 at 2:31 pm ZAC(Quote)
A FEW POINTS TO CONSIDER;ozsoapbox
1- The actual money were using is haram. Because the value of money is not in the money. Islam prohibits this.Money has to be backed by Gold for example in order for it to be hallal. Money must have intrinsic value.
2-What ozsoapbox is saying about it being like a normal loan is spot on. We Muslims really need to wake up. It is haram and it should be denounced. Its called interest through the back door. It has the same result of enslaving a population and making the rich richer.
3- THe main reason for the islamic banking being haram. In Islam in a business transaction there must be profit and loss.
THE BANK DOES NOT LOSE. THATS WHY ITS HARAM.
May 14th, 2011 at 10:48 am HomeOwner(Quote)
Hi all,
At last Ozsoapbox isn’t quite wrong about the islamic finance in Australia, nowdays the islamic financial institutions are moving more and more towards the traditional loans.
they are offering fixed of max 5 years to variable profit (basically its an interest), however few years ago they use to tie this so called interest by rental (based on market value).
this product use to be called musharaka. Here briefly the outlines of this product being more islamic than ever: (the concept is to buy the property together and pay rent for the share you don’t own, and it is calculated every month) basically you have to make to payment one to buy more of the property and one to pay rent.
1- Need to provide 20%
2- Be member min 6 months
3- Buy the property for you under your name but you will not get the title
4- Allow you to delay your payment with no penalty
5- The delay could not exceed 3 months (with liable justification
6 – If delay exceeds, both agree to sell the property and collect the appropriate share
7- Can repay the property at any time with no penalty
I sadly can not see much difference in either banks or institution.
May 14th, 2011 at 11:32 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
This musharaka does sound like it’s departing from interest in some way, but is rent is to a landlord.
You can’t buy a property with rent. As they say, rent money is dead money as you get nothing but the ability to live in the accommodation in return.
If you’re getting a share of ownership with each rent payment then it’s not rent anymore. It’s paying off a mortgage/loan with a 3 month safety net and variable interest rate dependent on average local rent fluctuations.
May 14th, 2011 at 12:53 pm HomeOwner(Quote)
Sorry for not explaining enough.
Lets say you bought a property for 100K .(Need to have 20K) the payement
-would be 500 per month for repayement (this is for buying more shares of the property.
-PLUS 400 per month (if market assessed rent is 500 and you already own 20%, then you pay 400 as part of the non owned 80% share) for rent — Basically this is the return on investement of the institution.
Hope did explain it right this time..
The point of all this is for both institution and you enter into an investement contract where you can both loose or win.
If both decide to sell for no reason at any given time.its possible and each one take its share..
May 14th, 2011 at 1:16 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Who does this rent go to and by paying it, does that mean I’m tied down to living in the property?
If the rent is being paid to the loaner, then who are they paying the rent to… you? And how can they pay rent if they don’t live there.
Also what happens say when you’re at 90% ownership, the loaner is going to pay you $450 in rent on a property they don’t live in?
And with you paying rent with the possibility of defaulting early, how is there any risk to the loaner? If the house is sold and the rent hasn’t achieved a 50+% swing in their favour (ie. you own more than 50% of the house), they’re more than likely to walk away with more money then they started with (rent + loan repayment + percentage of final house value).
Sounds like a complicated money game that still relies on terminology to mask what is essentially an interest based loan.
May 14th, 2011 at 9:18 pm HomeOwner(Quote)
It is not complicated at all, very simple the most important thing is both parties have to enter this contract together, and both have the right to their shares at any given time.
They give you a simple excel sheet for 20 years. with possible forcasted rent in your region (based on Real Estate Australia), but reviewed every 12 months in one column and repayment in another column and what is remaining in the last column (case where you wish to repay the lump sum).
As said that was the best and closed loan to shariah with no sneaking around.
ps: I bought my house in musharaka program, I own it now.
May 15th, 2011 at 2:12 am ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry Oz, but I have to disagree with this (being a long-term renter, I’ve had numerous other folks tell me the same thing)…
That “bit” is a big one, and one which is seriously understated. The ability to live in the accommodation means the difference between living on the streets (lirerally) and living in a confortable home with all of its amenities.
The analogy I often use? I want to drive to Geelong from Melbourne for an important business seminar (and in actuality I don’t own a car). There’s no way I’m gonna rely on public transport for getting to and from such an event, so I hire a car for 72 hours. Okay; it costs me $215 for the three days, and when I return the vehicle I walk away with absolutely nothing tangible, zero, zilch, nada to show for its hiring costs.
But… and this is my point. For that $215 I’ve received the amenity of hiring the car itself; I’ve ensured that I’ve got to the seminar satisfactorily to start with; I’ve received the benefits from the seminar’s input; those benefits will hopefully be useful in my business and will produce increased profits etc etc etc.
Using the “dead rent money” scenario then, one could (wrongly) say that hiring the car was a waste of my money, because at the end of its three-day hire, I had — literally — nothing concrete to show for it.
People often confuse “amenity” with tangible returns, and one simply can’t do that.
May 15th, 2011 at 7:13 am HomeOwner(Quote)
Hi ausGeoff,
This is called mitigation cost in financial terms, this is when you do risk assessment and find that hiring a car at $215 will reduce your risk of not attending by 80% which will cost probably the non refundable attendance fee of $1000 per say.
May 15th, 2011 at 7:42 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@HomeOwner
Still not understanding what the risk is to the lender. The only thing I can think of is if the property market crashed and the resell value isn’t enough to cover the initial loan plus the money paid in ‘rent’.
May 15th, 2011 at 7:52 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@ausgeoff
You can apply that analogy to anything though (and you did, with the car analogy). Tangibility wise though, all you’re paying for is the accommodation.
The benefits that come with it are obviously real, but they don’t really have anything to do with the landlord. Sure you might feel you’re paying for the extended benefits of having accommodation, but that’s not what the landlord is charging you for.
Remember, this is all in the context of charging rent between a lender and borrower for an islamic loan.
May 15th, 2011 at 9:11 pm HomeOwner(Quote)
Going back to the Musharaka, as said it was available in Oz Land and it was sound proof islamicaly, conclusion Islam has created such guidelines many years ago and things went well.
Unfortunalty now days some muslims are modifying some of these guidelines to suit their satisfaction and you can find this ideology in any other religion.
PS: Did you know that in Judaism they are not allowed to deal with interest btw themselves ?
May 30th, 2011 at 10:01 pm hasan(Quote)
Hi OZ
My problem isn’t so much the fact that it’s a muslim loan, respect for the religion aside, but rather that halal loans are the same thing as a fixed rate interest loans. Extra money is extra money to the banks who ‘riped’ us off.
As a muslim I really appreciate your writing about halal loan but unfortunately we muslims got a delay sensor fitted in our system so don’t worry we will understand and accept your analogy couple of years later when we muslims would get well and truly screwed up both by banks and private lender.
This Halal loan or islamic loan is only a product or a brand name of a tablet it’s got nothing to do with relegion islam pathetically it will create more muslim bankrupt not less.
I feel really sorry for our hard working muslim brother’s and sister’s who are falling for this halal home loan trap it’s exactly the same thing as bank’s fixed term loan, very smartly halal lenders have calculated their interest and ofcourse by the name of halal we are happily paying more than the normal banks interest rate that’s what attracting normal bankers to lend money towards muslim.
As a muslim if you guy’s don’t understand this simple fact there is nothing but trouble waiting for us.
Those who whinging about oz’s comment about islam and muslim I reckon Allah subhanatála has given him full right to say whatever he likes or thinks then who you or me to whinge about his language.
May 31st, 2011 at 1:28 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Glad to hear you agree hasan. It’s really not that hard to see through these loans yet I guess there are always going to be people who take questioning of the Islamic loans offered as a direct attack on Islam.
Or even a ‘why don’t you want to deny us finance!’ I guess. Meanwhile the real people denying them a valid chance at a loan are the lenders themselves, who are obviously only in it for the money.
June 17th, 2011 at 10:14 pm moe(Quote)
plain and simple if you buy a car from the auction for 10grand and sell it to a mate when he knows you only got it for 10grand but sold it to you for 12grand its up to him if he wants to pay that much it doesnt mean its interest. its like trading prices get bumped up on demand. nothing wrong with that theres no interest.
and for christians your not allowed to deal with interest as it says in the bible that if you deal with usery, on the day of judgement thay shall not be sheltered! in other words god will not have mercy on you.
anyway the ppl who dont beleive in god man honestly all you have to do is sit there and think of your body . your eyez,brain,heart, lungs the universe how is it so perfect. dont give me the big bang theory because if thats the case someone had to create that combustion.
picture the world with no interest how better it would be well thats what the islam law is doing.only if this world was controlled by muslims how peace ful it would be. and dont tell me that shit, that muslims are terrorist let me ask you this if you where sitting in your house and a group of men barged in shooting your son in the head raping your daughter and wife infront of you then killing them aswell as blowing up your house your tellin me your just gona get on wit your like.
after losing everything that you loved your telling me your not gona strap your chest and blow the rest. yes i know it has this has nothing to do with halal loans but b4 any of you bring it up ill just let you know. cheers
June 17th, 2011 at 10:33 pm moe(Quote)
hasan you clearly dont understand, muhammad saaws . said its ok if some one buys something and sells it for more thats not interest ,your not signing no interest condition its just business.
when you go to the shop and buy a drink for $3 bucks you know they only paid roughly 80cents are you telling me thats interest,its just business well buddy i suggest you stop buying things from the shop and go hunting yourself. becoz its the same thing.
the bank buys it for $500,000 and then you buy it off them for $600,000 and at the end of the day its not interest so what if your paying more its just business.
whats sad is your trying to put a kafeur over your brothers and sisters you got to watch what you say allah aza wajel says you would be resurrected with the ones who you follow.
oz cleary admits he hates muslims and your trying to make him think your a fully sick aussie that you understand were hes coming from.if you can afford to buy a house then you can. but if a muslim whats to buy a house and he wanted it first then your not allowed to buy it for the respect of your brother but if it was a auction you are allowed to bid against each other .
muhammad saaws once held an item for auction and when someone offered some money he asked if any one wants to offer more. this is to my muslim bros/sis.
June 17th, 2011 at 11:43 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Fuck me drunk…
It doesn’t take much to get these Islamic fundamentalists all hot and bothered does it LOL!
Seriously, if we had any brains in this country, we’d be immediately banning the migration of any Muslims into Australia before we end up with the disastrous situation they’re now got in the UK, where the Muslims are trying to introduce Sharia law into parliament.
The disjointed ramblings in the posts (above) by ‘moe’ are a classic example of why fundamentalist Muslims will never assimilate with the mostly secular Australian population.
It should also be noted that their “hero” Muhammad was a paedophile. He married a six-year-old girl named Aishah and consummated the marriage when she was only NINE years old! Is this any indication of the moral stance of Muslims? The founder of Islam was a kiddy-fiddler, and 21st-century Muslims are still quite happy to accept this, and not denounce Muhammad.
What does that say about them, and their “brotherly love”?
June 18th, 2011 at 1:11 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moeUh, if he loans the money off you to buy the car then yeah it’s interest. You’re confusing buying something outright with cash as opposed to loaning the money to buy it (and subsequently paying off the loan at a higher amount over time which is interest).
If you give the bank $600,000 upfront then yes, you’re merely buying the house off the bank at a higher price. If however you borrow the money from the bank to buy the house, the $100,000 is then interest on the original loan.
loan + more money then you loaned = interest.
There’s no way around this.
As for the rest of your rambling, we all know how much of a peace haven the middle east is now don’t we. And before you go on about how the west has ‘invaded’, America has only been around a few hundred years, how much peace has an islamically dominated middle east seen throughout history?
I’m not too fond of Islam. Muslims I don’t mind much as people.
June 18th, 2011 at 1:30 pm moe(Quote)
ausGeoff here we go again islamic fundalmentalist hahaha
maybe you should do some research if, Michael H. Hart of USA, compiled a ranking list of the 100 most influential persons in the history of the entire humanity, who authored book “The 100 most influential persons”, published in 1978 by Hart Publishing Company Inc.
He ranked Muhammad peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him, as the number one, at the top of his list. in his own words “My choice of Muhammad to lead the best of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels.
George Bernard Shaw:
“I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving the problems in a way that would bring the much needed peace and happiness. Europe is beginning to be enamored of the creed of Muhammad. In the next century it may go further in recognizing the utility of that creed in solving its problems.”
your words ausgeoff mean nothing and you are a nothing these intelligent ppl understand and studied him also to let you know they are not muslims but christians ,muhammad saawa is ranked number 1 in this world shows how perfect he is .
for you to understand why he married her will be very hard for you ,in islam we are not allowed to deal with women such as if there in need of help and support, you have to be married to them to take care of them thats just one simple reason.
but i guess thats not how you’ve been raised. anyway you still know that this is not your country so top trying to force it.they’ll be wasting there time trying to ban muslims its the fastest growing religion for obvious reason only one that makes sense. so stop getting your info from channel 7,9,10 and do some research.
oz “As for the rest of your rambling, we all know how much of a peace haven the middle east is now don’t we”
are you serious?????? i bloody wonder why. so your blind when america goes and starts war for oil you cant see thousands of arabs die. but let me guess you can see when one u.s or aussie soldier dies. dont tell me its bcoz of 9/11 everybody knows it doesnt make sense.
they went to iraq for saddam claiming he had nukes, but told everyone after they demolished iraq that it was a false alarm. but hey korea is showing there technology and the u.s know they have nukes but just turn a blind eye because it would be more of a battle for them and theres no oil .
June 18th, 2011 at 1:37 pm moe(Quote)
oz i understand what your saying about the loans that its just added up and smacked in your face in one hit but you would not understand because you havent studied islam to understand why we cant deal with interest.
i first thought of what you were thinking how its added up and stuff but after doing some research its fine.
the ppl that agree with you such as hasan are only ppl who have pulled out a loan on interest and bought a house , so they want to go against anyone who wants to buy a house the muslim way to make themselves feel better and feel that what they done is right.
June 18th, 2011 at 7:36 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
You’re a lot more generous of spirit than I am Oz…
Personally, I regard the religion (read “army”) of Islam with the utmost repugnance and distrust, and yes, fear. If there were one, single thing I could do as a hypothetical “President” of the entire planet, it would be to immediately and totally ban Islam and any adherents to its aggressive, inhumane and barbaric cause.
Islam has the potential — at least in the warped mindset of its followers — to annihilate every one of its enemies globally: that is, us infidels.
Check out this extract from their holy book (read “call to arms”) the Qur’an.
The Surah: AlAhzab, Number 33, Verse 36:
23. Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah [i.e. they have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting), and showed not their backs to the disbelievers]; of them some have fulfilled their obligations (i.e. have been martyred); and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed [i.e. they never proved treacherous to their covenant which they concluded with Allah] in the least.
24. That Allah may reward the men of truth for their truth (i.e. for their patience at the accomplishment of that which they covenanted with Allah), and punish the hypocrites, if He wills, or accept their repentance by turning to them (in Mercy). Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
25. And Allah drove back those who disbelieved in their rage: they gained no advantage (spoils). Allah sufficed for the believers in the fighting (by sending against the disbelievers a severe wind and troops of angels). And Allah is Ever All-Strong, All-Mighty.
26. And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers), Allah brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives.
27. And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allah is Able to do all things.
28. O Prophet (Muhammad)! Say to your wives: “If you desire the life of this world, and its glitter, then come! I will make a provision for you and set you free in a handsome manner (divorce).[2]
29. “But if you desire Allah and His Messenger, and the home of the Hereafter, then verily, Allah has prepared for Al-Muhsinat (good-doers) amongst you an enormous reward.”
30. O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits an open illegal sexual intercourse, the torment for her will be doubled, and that is ever easy for Allah.
——Note in particular the phrase “inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden before“.
This is precisely why we in Australia (and the rest of the Western world) need to urgently cease the migration of any and all Muslims into Australia. For the media commentators — and bleeding-heart Muslim do-gooders — who claim a distinction between “fundamentalist” and “peace-loving” Islamics, there’s simply no such thing.
It’s simply a convenient myth that’s been contrived in an attempt at getting us to lower our guard. One only has to look at the insidious and subversive nature of the Islamic infiltrators (disguised as immigrants) in the United Kingdom who are currently trying to get the UK parliament to acknowledge Sharia law.
Wake up Australia — before it’s too late.
June 18th, 2011 at 10:43 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moe
As I mentioned, America is only a few hundreds of years old. You’re telling me prior to that the middle east was a peace haven?
For all their misgivings, America has become a convenient scapegoat for much of the middle east.
And I think you mean China as (North) Korea aren’t technologically overpowering anyone soon.
What does that even have to do with anything?
If we’re talking a loan and the amount you repay on this loan is anything more than 100% of the original amount loaned, it’s interest. Plain and simple.
Well so long as you say so…
…it’s still interest though.
June 18th, 2011 at 11:39 pm moe(Quote)
how did australia become to be australia did the aboriginals just hand it over or were hundred and thousands slaugherted like animals to claim this country as theres how can a place be dicovered when it already had people there,anyway so your not telling me that this is terrorism right its ok but if arabs did it then its terrorism.
did you know when the prophet muhammad saaws had control of the lands there was peace with everyone, even though the jews , christians and so on hated his msg but they loved the way they were treated and lived. this information is coming from them not the quran from them.
and if he was doing it for the riches of this worldly things then why was it that he did not have a palace nor anything at all but a camel and some clothes when he could of had anything and everything, when the other leaders and kings sent there messagers to go and speak to muhammad saaws why is it that they didnt regconise him he was wearing the same clothes as other ppl sitting on the ground like other ppl, not like the leaders of today sitting on golden chairs and so on ,
if he was encouraging muslims to inherit the riches of this world you tell me then why didnt he when he had full control and could take what ever he wanted, answer this to me since you say that we want to inherit the riches of this world and thats his teachings dont mislead the readers geoff.
oh you never studied that section aye.do you mind me what your belief is or if you follow a religion just curious thats all.
oz if i explain
im gona be here forever and i dont have the time for it anymore. so live your life how you want to, just hope you realise that god is true and hopefully he opens your eyez take care.and for other ppl dont target the religion from actions a few people do. theres bad ppl in every religion .
June 18th, 2011 at 11:46 pm moe(Quote)
ozsoapbox: I’m not too fond of Islam. Muslims I don’t mind much as people.
ozgeoff… You’re a lot more generous of spirit than I am Oz…
plain and simple your just a weak hearted flop.
June 19th, 2011 at 12:00 am ausGeoff(Quote)
I’ve obviously done my research a lot more thoroughly than you my friend…
You’ve chosen to quote statistics selectively, according to this report:
“The world’s Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35% in the next 20 years, rising from 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion by 2030, according to new population projections by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.
Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population over the next two decades – an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims, compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.
While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a SLOWER pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades. From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%, compared with the projected rate of 1.5% for the period from 2010 to 2030.”
You’ll note that I’ve highlighted two specific points in this report. In particular that Islam is not the “fastest growing” religion in the world (that accolade belongs to Buddhism in fact) when compared to the remainder of the world’s religions and atheists.
Second: the rate of increase of the Muslim population is actually decreasing largely due to two factors: the emancipation of 21st-century females who disavow the restrictive practices of Islam against them, plus the fact that educated and technically literate modern-day children of Muslim parents are far less likely to follow the tenets and dogma of their parents’ outmoded religion, that is, Islam.
I’m surprised — well, more amused really — that you quote the well known ultra-racist Michael Hart in defense of Islam! This is a guy who wants to create three official racial divides in America between whites and blacks, and moderates from both sides, but, more importantly wants to prevent the degradation of American cultural values by an influx of “foreigners” including Muslims.
You’ve also totally misinterpreted the thrust of Hart’s top ten in that “influential” does not conflate with superior, preferred or admirable. Think Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or Franco — most certainly influential, and on a worldwide scale, but to be admired, followed or emulated? I don’t think so.
You’re more than welcome in trying to defend Islam and the modern-day atrocities it commits in its name, but at the end of the day, science, logic and human decency will win out.
I can only hope that you and your ilk are not living in Australia at the moment. Please stay wherever you are.
June 19th, 2011 at 12:23 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moe
Irrelevant.
No I didn’t. He allegedly lived for 60 odd years though almost 2,500 years ago or something didn’t he?
What about since then? Long before America even existed…
Thankyou for your input, and in the process of doing so completely not addressing any points put forward to you about interests and loans.
You entered the discussion here claiming a loan with interest isn’t a loan with interest and then got caught up with your religious mumbo jumbo. Shame really.
June 19th, 2011 at 1:34 pm moe(Quote)
oz your the one who got caught up in trying to defame islam from what ive been reading .did you know when the prophet muhammad saaws had control of the lands there was peace with everyone.
pzsoapbox” No I didn’t. He allegedly lived for 60 odd years though almost 2,500 years ago or something didn’t he?
What about since then? Long before America even existed…”
then again you wont understand hes just one of our prophets same as adam ,noah , jesus and so on they all came down for the same msg.
muhammad saawa completed the msg its not just gona take one day to put peace in the world he took off where they finished,they were all messangers with the same msg.
jesus was a messanger he never said i am god worship me nver said that in the bible, man said that also all christians say he came for the world to free the sins, no he didnt he clearly says i came to the lost sheep of isreal because they were on the wrong path so he never came for the world, but muhammad saaws was sent to the world as a mercy and after he passed away it slowly came back to where it started maybe even worse….
for ppl like ozgeoff redneck that cant help it when great ppl that are not even muslim talk about muhammad being the greatest man. geoff, micheal h hart is just one from many, and all your doing is copying and pasting most likely from not a reliable source
and by the way i can see how your trying to avoid my questions about australia maybe like what oz said its Irrelevant because u have know answers, if you think about it you would know its terrorism but try to turn a blind eye to it.
well actually geoff i live in syd
. whhy are you making out that australia is to good for muslims the arab countries are more beautiful and richer. ive got to stop now its addictive no more from me cya
June 19th, 2011 at 5:19 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
This blatant avoidance of the FACTS is one of the major problems with these fanatical followers of Islam. If they’re confronted with empirical evidence that contradicts their “beliefs”, they simply claim that there opponents’ sources are suspect or not “reliable”. And yet — amazingly — their sources are impeccable!
So now you’re claiming that Michael Hart may not have his facts straight after all (only one of many)? You’re now effectively hedging your bets? Your previous posting quotes Hart as an (apparent) authority in support of Muhammad, but now your saying my information about him — Hart — (from Wikipedia) is suspect? You can’t have it both ways my confused friend.
And you’ve obviously misunderstood my contention that Michael Hart is not stating that Muhammad the “greatest man” who ever lived (or conveniently choosing to ignore it?) but rather one of the most “influential” — massive difference there.
And when all else fails, and you can’t logically support your argument with facts, then simply start attacking the credentials of your opponent(s). So now I’m a “redneck”? Ha ha!
You really need to shift your mindset into the 21st century my friend, and relinquish your beliefs in the supernatural or paranormal, and stop having faith in fairy stories that were written thousands of years ago by scientifically ignorant individuals who knew absolutely nothing about our universe. Their only explanations for the human condition largely relied on superstitions and fear.
And fear — pure and simple — is what sustains Muslim’s irrational beliefs and male-dominated power base even today in allegedly educated societies. Fear of angering and drawing the wrath of some imaginary friend of theirs up in the sky.
What a laugh!
June 19th, 2011 at 6:15 pm moe(Quote)
lool ozgeoff “You really need to shift your mindset into the 21st century my friend, and relinquish your beliefs in the supernatural or paranormal, and stop having faith in fairy stories that were written thousands of years ago by scientifically ignorant individuals who knew absolutely nothing about our universe. Their only explanations for the human condition largely relied on superstitions and fear.”
then clearly you dont know anything about islam except what you heard. in the QURAN it explains the heavens and the earth as well as many things like how a baby is created it explains from start to finish now since the quran was from thousands of years ago how would he have the technology to explain all of this,
there were no technology what so ever, what the scientist are finding out not from this superior technology, how can a man get all this info thousands of years ago answer that. just 1 answer my friend he was a messanger of god.
u didnt know that aye because you didnt study it,just assumed that muhammad saaws didnt know anything about the universe or other things, just opened your ears to islam haters. all the scientist had to do is read the quran to get the answers for what they have been studying for so long with this techology they have now.
also if you do some research the scientist that read the quran after they found the infos of such things converted to islam because they knew a man could never know this so many thousands of years ago. now there scientist we can say very smart intellegent ppl,so they understand but you wont because your just a flop.
you keep on beleiving in science that you were once a monkey haha. can you do me a favor theres a knowledgable man named khalid yasin hes also well known on youtube visi that site type in ( the purpose of life ) he would give you some answers
and if you do beleive in science then he would make you look stupid. go watch it then start making comments you clearly dont know
June 20th, 2011 at 3:24 am ausGeoff(Quote)
Oh boy! Poor old moe has really overdosed on the “woo” beans here LOL…
I truly can’t believe that you think that all our scientists have been wasting their research efforts for the past couple of centuries, when all they needed to do was read your silly holy book for the answers.
There’s only two options here: You’re actually certifiably insane, or you have the mental capacity of a can of sardines.
Unfortunately, I’m thinking that your mental processes match those of all the other Muslim knob-jockeys out there with room-temperature IQs. We don’t need your type in Australia; why don’t you piss off back to whatever shit-hole Islamic country you came from.
I also understand that Muhammad also fucked camels — as well as nine-year-old girls. What a shining example of human values.
June 20th, 2011 at 12:56 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moe
I wasn’t aware there was any scientific basis to heaven, seeing as it’s imaginary and all. As for Earth, science needs proof before we accept them. Until then it’s just a theory. I’ve got no idea what the Quran says about Earth but if someone guessed wrong with it being flat I guess it’s plausible someone guessed right too.
As for babies, uh are you serious?
There’s nothing scientific about penis in, release sperm bing badda boom 9 months later it’s a baby. People have been doing that for tens of thousands of years hey.
I wasn’t once anything, the human species evolved.
But no, believing we’re all created by an imaginary pie in the sky as is for the last few thousand years (despite there being records of human evolution mapped out with skeletal records), is much more plausible.
I’ve got one final question, if the Quran is such a great scientific book then why do we have so many muslims trying to stonewall us back into the dark ages. You guys have had all the answers for thousands of years now and done what with it?
Still reduced fighting over your petty interpretations of the same book. Good job.
The problem with religious science is that we have to just take for granted it’s true. That, and if you try to build on it you’re buggered if you build on anything and find that it contradicts what was previously written (thousands of years ago).
I imagine any muslim scientist that develops a breakthrough that contradicts the Quran isn’t going to be around too long.
June 20th, 2011 at 4:07 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
This has got funnier as we move along… if that’s at all possible?
There’s actually no such thing as “the heavens” — it’s a purely abstract construct that has absolutely no bearing on the sciences. Islam (like all other religions) has chosen to have a “good” place (or heaven) and also a “bad” place that its adherents eventually end up in depending on their actions during their lifetime.
This is simply leverage to instill fear into Muslims that if they don’t adhere strictly to the tenets of Islam, then they’re gonna end up in the “bad place”. You’ll notice that this “fear factor” is built into the dogma of all religions — including Christianity.
I’m not sure what you mean moe when you claim that the QURAN “explains” the earth, because it does no such thing. I defy you to show me where this is proven in any empirical way. By empirical, I mean science-based evidence explaining its form and function — as distinct from fanciful fictional notions akin to fairies at the bottom of the garden!
And at the time the QURAN was cobbled together, there was absolutely zero knowledge of the biological mechanisms of how a baby was “made”. Other than — as Oz has said in effect — penis enters vagina, and later on a baby pops out.
I’ve also noted that you’ve not responded in any way (defensive or otherwise) to my posting of June 18 at 7:36PM wherein I queried several passages form your holy book. Why not? Because they’re indefensible maybe?
And for anybody interested in an extremely detailed dissection of the QURAN and Islam, this is an excellent site to check out:
http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/
—Geoff the atheist.
June 20th, 2011 at 4:50 pm moe(Quote)
looooool here we go again the proof is right infront of you on net but you turn a blind eye its right there but you wont look at it because your afraid of change as for ausgeoff he had nothing to say because he got put on the spot so he starts swearing at the prophet lool weak mate weak. and who said this is your country u keep forgetting its for the aboriginals so y dont you take your convict ass back to england and suck the queens cock your just a puppet for the u.s like all the rest. i bet u dont even know who your parents are being born a bastard , maybe your cut since all aussie girls love lebo cocks and you all get upset because there always with us. it all ends to this you have a big mouth here but i garuntee your to scared to say it to a muslims face like all you aussie bitches when were in your area you look on da ground hahaha like lil bitches so shut your bitch ass up . and like i said go believe in evolution that your mum was once a pig and you dad was once a dog thats y your race are bogans . the only reason why u hate muslims is because maybe your mrs left you for one or they picked on you ,oh so sad , u junkie dogs
oz its not as simple as putting it in then 9months later you have a baby .but it explains how its start from the inside to finish be4 you say anything maybe you should read it . i think its better then just to throw out comments .your claiming everything has been created well then someone had to create this world. i said i was gona stop a while back but this time its for real ozgeoff is taking me down to his level , so if you do have daughters keep them at home b4 you find a lebo dick in her
June 20th, 2011 at 5:10 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
Ahh the good ol lebonese, explains everything really.
I’d normally remove the above few comments but I’ll leave them in this instance so readers can see what’s really behind peace loving Islam.
After all, everyone knows there’s only either ‘junkie dogs’ or muslims living in Australia.
June 20th, 2011 at 7:02 pm moe(Quote)
wow good on you let them read it but then they would see oz geoff comment first but let me guess you might delete his ones, you know what they say dogz run in packs
June 20th, 2011 at 7:22 pm moe(Quote)
they would also see how racist you are by not saying anything about what ausgeoff said about muhammad. but then again
its people like you who target the whole of islam or muslims from just one person like me. i know what i said was wrong but when you have a bum like geoff hey i guess shit happens but you should not judge the whole from just one person keep that in mind
June 20th, 2011 at 11:57 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Good decision Oz…
I’m not going to waste any more of my time responding to moe as he seems determined to ignore any of my legitimate questions about Islam and the Quran.
Having said that, he’s very typical of the fanatical religious fundamentalists who absolutely refuse to consider their opponents’ points of view for even a fleeting moment.
The latter parts of this thread have proven that it’s ultimately pointless trying to communicate at an intellectual level with these people — and Muslims in particular. Their mindset is incontrovertibly bound to the dogma of Islam — never to be shaken.
We can be thankful that, according to the last federal census, Muslims accounted for a mere 1.71 per cent of the Australian population (based on religion). Compare that with 18.7 per cent for atheists.
And like the inevitable death of Communism in Australia in the late 1950s Islam will soon cease to be nothing more than a blot on our history. Like bird shit on your windscreen.
June 21st, 2011 at 6:53 pm moe(Quote)
ive been giving questions from the start about australia and the reason is you just think that muslims are terrorists, and you have no proven facts but just blow shit out of your mouth and try to convince people that the quran has no answers about this earth.
theres alot of known science facts from the quran that they said no one many centuries ago could know any such things, but you wont even have a look because your a stubbon arrogant person. your questions about muhammad and a young girl is nothing.
your race and your people accept the marriage of the same sex, which means you are just dirty animals so what do you call that human nature. science maybe???? if that was acceptable by your means,then why does it create dieseases aye like aids a major player in that role .it clearly shows you its wrong but they want to ingnore it because there all stubbon this exists amonst your kind of people.
here are some facts of scientists speaking about the quran and how a human is created they agree to the quran having the infomation….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU&feature=related
oz you can look at this too it’ll be a good idea, but for geoff i bet you you wont even have a look or you might open it then get scared and close the page you just got to man up. and dont tell me there hired from muslims or what ever stupid comment you are going to say.there not even arabs or muslims so have a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYpjZywUPA&feature=related
maybe everyone should see this and see what geoff has to say since he says theres no information about any of this in the quran,im waiting for your reply geoff
June 22nd, 2011 at 12:26 am ausGeoff(Quote)
Uh…
Exactly what part of this phrase don’t you understand?
June 22nd, 2011 at 1:59 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moe
I wasn’t aware muhammad was a race of people. Nor are muslims for that matter.
There seem to be a lot of people like this in Islam. Both of the ‘what I said was wrong’ and ‘what I did was wrong’ variety. You’re delusional if you think you’re alone in this regard.
Oh dear, so much for being ‘open minded’ and all. I’m not even going to address the legitimacy of homosexuality with you as it’s such a stupid discussion to have in this day and age.
All I’ll say is that by your reasoning, god created everything and this naturally must include homosexuality and homosexuals. Furthermore, if god created everything… who created disease? Why do god fearing individuals get sick and die?
June 22nd, 2011 at 5:58 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
This is a good response Oz…
And I have to acknowledge it’s partially my fault we’ve drifted so far off your original topic starter. Sorry.
Like you, I’m astounded in the 21st century that moe — apparently — is so absolutely locked into the primitive tenets of Islam that he actually describes homosexuals as “dirty animals” — in all seriousness! I am suspecting this is due to him being Lebanese, and as everyone knows young Lebanese men always like to see themselves as uber-macho. No poofters amongst the Lebo’s LOL!
—Which must make life very difficult for latent Lebanese homosexuals?
June 22nd, 2011 at 6:34 pm moe(Quote)
so your telling me all aussies are good people? theres bad in every race.. but lets get to the point , i gave you and geoff facts about the science in the quran but both of you you totally ingnored it and try to get off the minds of who ever is reading this topic of science in the quran because if you clicked on the links and listened and who ever clicks on the links and listened will know you just got put to shame and rocked my friends.
because theres alot of science in the quran and if you deny that then everyone can see how arrogant you guys are. let me guess are you gonna say that the scientist are delusional i can garuntee that the 3 of us cant compare to just one of them. but i find it cute how you guys are helping each other out lol.
are you seriously dumb? god created homosexuals lol, god created male and female they chose to want to sleep with each other which creates dieseases then i guess hey they created it.
if the first 2 people on this earth were male then i wont be able to say anything but god put 1 male and 1 female for a reason and you would be so stupid to think they just came from no where. thats like saying you want to pull a mercerdes car to peices put it in a container shake it and all the peices will come together,
its just not gona happen same with the human our eyes,lungs,heart, or what ever you think its jut gona come togther ,but no everything has been created by god all mighty all powerful no if you think your out of this cycle try to escape death ,you would never be able were all heading in that direction.
why is it a stupid discussion because you accept this or maybe your just one of them????, so you dont care when 2 lesbians or fags get married and adopt kids or have them ,do you think thats fair to the children and how its forced upon them for the rest of the lives. oh i guess its not important because you accept this animal act.
geoff im still waiting for your reply on science in the quran cheers mate
June 22nd, 2011 at 6:42 pm moe(Quote)
loool trying to run away from the facts because you cant handle it… you must of clicked on the links. well nice talking to you my friend chow
June 22nd, 2011 at 11:39 pm Caffeinated SentryGnome(Quote)
AIDS is a late stage of HIV which is a mutated version of SIV. SIV comes from apes and monkeys. SIV was most likely transferred to humans by hunting a eating monkeys and ape meats..
the first cases of HIV were in Africa amongst the poor worker class.
also there is evidence that hints at there being advanced knowledge of the universe that predates the quran so how do you know that wasn’t copied from those sources.
June 23rd, 2011 at 11:35 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@moe
No, that was you. Stop introducing strawman arguments.
I watched a bunch of grainy film footage that looked like it’d been shot in the 60s featuring scientists I’d never heard of talking at what looked like pro-religious conferences.
I’ve already said it but I’ll reiterate it again, whatever science is in the Quran – can this be improved on and added to?
Science itself is an evolution whereas the problem with religion is it seems stuck in the dark ages. This is a major problem when trying to mix science and religion.
God created everything… didn’t he/she? Or are you one of those convenience worshippers who pick and choose?
Sleeping with one another doesn’t create disease, it merely propogates it.
And how do you know who the first two people on this earth were. What, because it’s written in some book which clearly contradicts the findings of human artifacts and remains dated at over 40,000-60,000 years of age (from memory)?
Death isn’t something to escape, it’s just something that happens. Well, natural death anyway. By all means try to escape death if you’ve got a terminal disease or find yourself in a life threatening situation.
Really…?
No, not really. So long as they are fit parents good on them. Heterosexuals have a lot to answer for with modern day parenting standards.
What exactly is forced upon them?
Oh that’s right, you’re part of the ‘homosexuality is taught’ mob. Good luck with that.
Didn’t god create animals too?
June 23rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm Jojo(Quote)
I could say the same about your attitude to religion and some of the muslims on this blog. Being an atheist myself, I was still shocked to read some of the stuff you, ausGeoff and moe have written here, and your blatant lack of respect for the beliefs of others. Your blog provides you with a position to make a difference dont abuse it man.
just a comment from one of your vivid followers….
June 23rd, 2011 at 2:17 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
You could say that and you’d be right. However I wasn’t claiming to have an open mind or accusing moe of not having one as he was. That’s where that comment came from.
When it comes to religion, my mind is simply closed off. Having said that I do respect the concept of religion but this doesn’t apply to all religions, there are those I have no respect for. Scientology and Islam are two of them.
Note that I differentiate the followers and their religions as seperate entities. My dislike focuses squarely on the religions themselves as institutions.
June 23rd, 2011 at 3:01 pm Jojo(Quote)
Out of sheer curiosity and nothing more, would you mind telling me why that is? I mean, much of Islam, Christianity and Judaism is based on the same fundamental principals right? For example, usury is prohibited not just in islam but also in Christianity, as is the consumption of alcohol.
I realise that this probably isn’t the right forum to be asking this but its probably of more relevance that a lot of the previous comments on here.
Thants good to hear
as is this
June 23rd, 2011 at 5:14 pm moe(Quote)
the video looks like it was shot in the 60s its actually about in the 80s but so whats the difference ,wasnt it roughly then they flew to the moon so your trying to say there not as smart as they are now, your still trying to find ways out of this.
oz… also there is evidence that hints at there being advanced knowledge of the universe that predates the quran so how do you know that wasn’t copied from those sources.
that means you didnt pay attention to when he says theres no history or evidence of science before.theres no point answering the other questions they lead to know where your still not gona understand, your just plain arrogant. maybe you should learn some manners from jojo and maybe me too, although jojo is a atheist you can see the respect he has towards other people and there beliefs.
oz…Note that I differentiate the followers and their religions as seperate entities. My dislike focuses squarely on the religions themselves as institutions.
then what happened here?
oz I’d normally remove the above few comments but I’ll leave them in this instance so readers can see what’s really behind peace loving Islam.
and why is it when one of your followers catch you out on what you really think ,you completely change and twist your words around and say something that satisfys them?
moe..so you dont care when 2 lesbians or fags get married and adopt kids or have them
oz… .No, not really. So long as they are fit parents good on them. Heterosexuals have a lot to answer for with modern day parenting standards
so your saying you would like to have 2 mothers or 2 fathers, thats whats being forced upon them that they would never be able to expeirence a father figure or so on,they cant have a say in that relationship.,this migtht me nothing to you but have you thought about the life they would have even at school? ohh i forgot its not important to you this day and age.
ill stop with this just listen to this man he would make you question yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4y6GuexZ58
also jojo if you can watch it and just follow the parts as youtube just lets you post something like ten mins thank you
June 23rd, 2011 at 6:32 pm Caffeinated SentryGnome(Quote)
i think you will find consumption of alcohol isn’t prohibited in Christianity. but being drunk is.
June 23rd, 2011 at 9:49 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry; wrong on both counts…
Usury has been allowed by Christians since the mid-16th century.
Alcohol consumption prohibited for Christians? Nope.
From IIIM Magazine Online 01-22-2007:
“Alcohol is a good gift of God that is rightly used in the Eucharist and for making the heart merry, and while its dangers are real, it may be used wisely and moderately rather than being shunned or prohibited because of potential abuse.”
June 24th, 2011 at 12:37 am Jeebers(Quote)
Well in older versions of the Bible (Peshitta, Gospel of the Holy Twelve) it was stated very clearly that alcohol was not permitted, and they also clearly banned the eating of meat. Newer versions reflect new political realities. People want the cream first without having to milk the cow.
The place of alcohol in righteous homes of old was a preservative for standing water that was to be drunk. Good folks have no time to go abusing preservatives or herbs used as medicine. They’re too busy doing constructive things to go get messed up. And mystics need all the brain power they can to have good meditation and connection with the spirit world.
June 24th, 2011 at 12:41 am Jeebers(Quote)
I’ve read through the Muslim comments here and they talk a lot like Jews, with tons of irony. They seem to be saying
“Go shove a fork in your eye, SIR! With all due respect, you’re an idiot! My most esteemed OzSoapbox, please be informed that I hate your guts!” etc.
Last time someone talked to me like that it was a Jew. I don’t come much in contact with the mudslimes/is-slimes around here in SE China though.
June 24th, 2011 at 12:24 pm ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Jojo
Well Scientology was created by a failed science fiction author looking to make money… enough said. I’m just never going to be able to take it seriously.
That and all the illegal activity they’ve gotten up to.
As for Islam, it seems to be ingrained in the religion itself that it’s just simply not compatible with non-believers or people from different religions. There seems to be a very strong ‘it’s our way or no way’ culture ingrained into it’s followers.
This is either a massive co-incidence worldwide or a result of what the religion itself teaches.
@moe
Sorry what? You’re claiming science didn’t exist before the Quran?! You mean nobody ever observed anything or used their environment to better their lives before the Quran was written?
That’s a mighty big claim, and naturally completely full of shit.
Oh please, don’t try and hide behind other readers. Respect is earnt and thus far you’ve done little to earn it – carrying on about your lebo pride like a pork chop.
I wasn’t aware I’d been caught out and changing and twisting my words…? Go back and read what I said. I might be a little more polite in conversing with others, but as I’m sure you can appreciate they haven’t warned me that my daughters are imminently about to be stuffed with ‘lebo dick’ and such.
How can you not experience a father figure when you have two fathers? As for lesbians, plenty of hetro couples break up, abuse their kids or otherwise miserably fail at being parents.
How about we just ban parenthood altogether? If a kid has a better shot at life rather than being put in an orphanage or the foster care system then more power to gay adoption I say.
I couldn’t care less about your silly religious beliefs from the dark ages towards homosexuals.
This would only be a problem if the school was populated by uneducated religious fanatics like yourself.
Mate I don’t need religion to tell me the purpose of life or why I’m here. I’m here because my parents got horny one night and wanted kids. My life is what I make of it and its purpose, if any, is solely at my own discretion.
June 24th, 2011 at 2:38 pm Farhad(Quote)
I would like to unsubscribe from this link
June 24th, 2011 at 5:43 pm moe(Quote)
ausGeoff
June 23rd, 2011 at 9:49 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry; wrong on both counts…
Jojo: For example, usury is prohibited not just in Islam but also in Christianity, as is the consumption of alcohol.
Usury has been allowed by Christians since the mid-16th century.
Alcohol consumption prohibited for Christians? Nope.
From IIIM Magazine Online 01-22-2007:
“Alcohol is a good gift of God that is rightly used in the Eucharist and for making the heart merry, and while its dangers are real, it may be used wisely and moderately rather than being shunned or prohibited because of potential abuse.”
usury has been allowed by christians mate it says in there holy bible . they who deal with usury should not be sheltered on the day of judgement Usury has been allowed by Christians since the mid-16th century. then they are just playing with gods words,these men are changing gods laws to suit them. thats why muslims and christians always argue they have been changing there words to please the peoples ears so they can try and have a easy life.
ausgeoff… Alcohol is a good gift of God that is rightly used in the Eucharist and for making the heart merry, and while its dangers are real, it may be used wisely and moderately rather than being shunned or prohibited because of potential abuse.”
Paul said in Romans 14:13-23 that the Kingdom of God is not about food and drink, but whatever we do we must not be a stumbling block to others. So if drinking alcohol could cause another Christian to stumble and become drunk then we should not drink.
June 24th, 2011 at 5:47 pm moe(Quote)
by the way i didnt mean that muslims change there words to suit there lifestyles,as they have never changed it.but it was just to the christians.
June 24th, 2011 at 7:12 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Still ROFLMAO…
This comment is absolute gold Oz! It’s so outrageously appropriate to accuse a Muslim of behaving like a pig. 10/10!
June 25th, 2011 at 12:15 pm Jeebers(Quote)
I guess Aussies eat dead pigs which eat their own poop, and Mudslimes eat goats which eat grass and then the Mudslimes live in deserts.
Perhaps it’s just impossible to have a salad for lunch….
June 26th, 2011 at 3:22 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Farhad
If you’re subscribed to this article’s comment feed, you should be able to unsubscribe via a link sent out with each email notification.
@moe
Please take your lebo pride bullshit drivel elsewhere. I don’t usually remove comments but accusing people of eating shit is just wasting everybody’s time.
July 1st, 2011 at 4:06 pm dbanj(Quote)
Wow, i must agree it has taken me almost two days to fully read this very intresting discssions.
My opinions
You are to abide by the laws of any country you are in… the government is not religious and its laws are sovereign..
Sincerely Australian laws are very fair to all religions so demanding more would be killing it,
I am quite suprised at people who try to enforce there own laws in a country they migrated to, seriously ?
Long story short , Obey the law and stop pointing fingers at every other religion , cos every religion has its issue’s
And yes i am religious but i am just tired of people:
Kiling each other
raping little boys
Stealing money etc in the name of religion
July 1st, 2011 at 7:32 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Well said dbanj…
Totally agree.
August 18th, 2011 at 11:30 pm Eyad(Quote)
agree with dbanj
you migrated into a country and try to enforce your own laws
un acceptable !!!!
but on the other hand , why so many people are getting on islam !!!!
Regrettably, Taliban, Al-Qaeda,fanatic Muslims (& biased media) have distorted Islam,Out of 1.6 billion Muslims they are a minority but have done great damage.
so now every body is accusing Islam because of a bunch of idiots who keep on killing any body does not agree with them and at the end they kill each others I hope they will vanish each other
August 19th, 2011 at 1:11 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
@Eyad
Not quite.
so now every body is accusing Islam because of a bunch of idiots who keep on killing any body does not agree with Islam.
Given that muslims do just a good job of promoting ‘one islam’, I think that’s pretty much the problem right there.
August 19th, 2011 at 6:11 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Sorry, but this is all a bit of a “whitewash”…
The singular driving force of Islam is to destroy all the “infidels”, that is, anybody and everybody other than Muslims. And to do that, Muslims have no qualms about dealing in murder and mayhem.
I’m not going into the pros and cons of Islam and its adherents and the Quran… it’s already been done to death here and elsewhere.
Suffice it to say that if you truly believe the threat of Islamic global dominance is confined only to Al-Qaeda and a few radical fundamentalists, then you’re sadly misinformed or choosing to deny the obvious.
September 17th, 2011 at 6:08 pm Muslim(Quote)
Oz you are an ignorant, arrogant and stupid atheist animal. You think you have knowledge but from what you have said you are an absolute fool. I hope and pray that any normal human being puts you down the correct sharia way.
For whoever is being nice to this filthy animal then surely I pity you. How can you make sense with an animal that denies religion and speaks without knowledge. Surely you and your family (your family in belief, religion comes before blood) will burn in this world and the hereafter because you all are a bunch of disgusting creatures that are worse then dogs.
I pray that you receive the full punishment that Allah has appointed for disgusting animals like you and may you burn in the deepest pits of hell.
September 18th, 2011 at 3:06 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
^^ Exhibit A: Why religion is worse then hard drugs.
Oh and for all you peace loving muslims out there, here’s an email I received shortly after the above comment was made;
Wonderful.
September 18th, 2011 at 7:41 am ausGeoff(Quote)
It’s such a pleasure to read the well-considered, articulate, insightful opinion of a typical Muslim isn’t it?
It’s also reassuring to know that Muslims truly have humanity’s best interests at heart too…
It should also be remembered that Muhammad (by current social standards) was a paedophile; his child bride Aisha herself said—
“Allah’s Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.”
Admitted to his house is, of course, a nice way of saying Muhammad consummated their marriage.
And Muslim reckons we atheists are “a bunch of disgusting creatures that are worse then dogs.”
I haven’t stopped laughing.
January 24th, 2012 at 10:40 am Why care soo much?(Quote)
The question that always comes to my mind is ‘why care soo much about what muslims do, eat, wear, belief in/…….etc???
I honestly dont get why people pick on them muslims soo much? is it jealousy? what is it?
I’m pretty sure there are other things in your life that are worth spending your time on! Other than picking on a particular community/ a group of people.
SO, its not okay for someone send you a rude email, but its okay for you to be disrespectful to this group of people…..i dont get this?? but i know ‘you should treat people the way you want to be treated’…..
some people have tried to say lots of bad things about these people and their religion and will keep saying rubbish….but be sure this wont affact them, i found them to be the smart, honest, loyal, faithful………..etc
Remember ‘There is a black sheep in every flock’…Hitler is German but that doesnt mean all Germans are like him right? thats the same with every single society.
Don’t judge the book by its cover (something you will need to consider and apply).
A small advice: your life is worth your time, once time is gone you wont get it back so waste it on something good and worth it. Also, its very important that you think before you act and make sure you know something/ someone extremely well before you talk about it/them.
sorry for the lengthy comment.
cheers
January 24th, 2012 at 11:16 am ozsoapbox(Quote)
Apart from the loaded rhetorical questions you ask, I didn’t really see anything there related to the topic at hand.
Just a bunch of emotional whinging from someone who evidently would prefer to bury their head in the sand rather than risk offending someone with an opinion.
Yawn.
January 24th, 2012 at 10:05 pm ausGeoff(Quote)
Okay, against my better judgment, I’ll fall for your loaded questions…
Simply because if we (Australians) don’t “care so much” about the devious ways in which Islam is attempting to infiltrate our secular society, and insidiously subvert our laws and moral standards, then there’s a slight—but real—chance that we’ll be overrun by these nutjobs somewhere down the track.
—And another easy answer…
Jealousy? Yeah, I’m really, truly jealous of women being stoned and nor being allowed to drive a car and being forced to cover their entire bodies in public. I’m also jealous of not being allowed to drink alcohol, or eat certain foodstuffs. I’m also jealous that I’d be forbidden from obtaining an interest-bearing loan. I’m also jealous that I’d be unable to accept or donate body organs, that I’d not be allowed euthanasia, or that I’d have to be circumcised. Again, I’m jealous that I’d be prohibited from working in factories that make alcohol, in meat-packing plants that package pork, or in entertainment venues that serve alcohol.
And the thinkers among us don’t simply “pick” on Muslims like kids taunting each other in the shoolyard. We expose the many practical lifestyle shortcomings, the outright lies, the inhumane aspects of the Islamic faith, the distorted perceptions of good and evil, and the underlying, insidious hatred of (we) infidels.
—It’s more than obvious you “don’t get it”…
It’s perfectly okay for someone to send me a “rude” email—and I’ll respond as I see fit—either with a constructive defence, or in kind, depending on its content. Common courtesy and respect requires that we shouldn’t send each other offensive emails, but it’s simply idealistic to think it’s not going to happen at some stage.
I think you’re taking the word “disrespect” too literally in your posting. I’m not aware that I’ve shown any disrespect for Muslims, either as faceless individuals, or personally on this blog. I’ve simply pointed out—as a non-Muslim—the serious shortcomings and contradictions that I perceive in the Islamic faith—with respect to our largely-secular, democratic and egalitarian 21st-century society.
I’ll ask you a simple question: Why are Muslim women regarded by males as second-class citizens? And please don’t tell me it’s because they (the women) choose to be treated so.
—And this comment is just plain silly…
Are you admitting that there are evil Muslims out there (black sheep)? How can you be sure that those few evil Muslims aren’t exerting that same overpowering influence over the “good” Muslims that Hitler exerted over the “good” Germans?
—Thank you for the advice…
As it turns out, I do know a lot about the Islamic faith. I’m a lifelong atheist (more than 50 years), and have studied both the Bible and the Qur’an at various times—often to counter criticism of my atheism from orthodox religionists.
You quote Hitler as an evil man. Did you know him personally? I thought not. I certainly don’t have to know the leader of the Islamic group Supporters of Tawheed—Abu Hajar—to know that he’s an evil man.
I quote him thusly:
“[Our] core belief is the domination of the world by Islam.
[Our] group also rejects democracy and freedom, which we call false deities: We believe that it is only a matter of time until Islam will dominate the whole world and this is something that we believe in and are striving to see.
We think democracy is not acceptable.”
… And finally, I’m somewhat bemused that you’re apparently such an active apologist for the Islamic faith—evidenced by your posting at some length here. Any particular reason?